Fashion dolls/unrealistic proportions-- just a problem with female dolls?

[Wotan]

I've seen a criticism leveled at Garnet and Ruby, and at several of the female doll sculpts in general. There seems to be concern about-- and dislike of-- the "fashion doll" body type typified by the SD16 girl body, with a common complaint being how unrealistic and idealized the figure of this body is (broad shoulders, narrow waist and hips, long legs, etc.)

Now, before we go any further, I'd like to say that I'm not blind to the circumstances of these views. Most of the participants in this hobby are females; that is what it is, neither positive nor negative. I'm not saying we need more males to participate, and I'm not saying it should be exclusively a female pasttime. The demographics of the ABJD hobbyist are going to largely dictate preferences; if/when the demographic shifts as new people come into the hobby, there may be changes, but currently I think we can agree that there are definite overarching characteristics of ABJD owners.

So, I guess my question is largely a rhetorical one: aren't some of the male doll body sculpts every bit as exaggerated and idealized as the worst offenders among female sculpts? If they are, where's the criticism for them? It's hardly fair to criticize female dolls for being unrealistic or idealized while embracing sculpts like the Dollshe or CP boys carte blanche. Guys just aren't built that way, just as girls aren't built like SD16 girls.

Listen: this is mainly an exercise in metacognition. There's no right or wrong in our aesthetic preferences. I say "Good for you!" whether you like your boyos tall and skinny (Dollshe) or short and stocky (SD13), and I daresay many of you echo that sentiment when i squee over my SD16 girl (either that, or you don't really know what to make of a guy my size going "squee!" over a doll ) It just seems like the "unrealistic" appellation is a bit artificial and one-sided, not to mention laden with innuendo, and I wanted to verbalize it.

Sorry about the dry read, and it's probably a little more direct than some might find comfortable. I don't want to be confrontational; I intend this as an open discussion. It just would have taken me at least twice as long to try and couch my thoughts in innocuous terms, and I know we're all mature enough not to take this kind of thing personally. Now, feel free to rip my guts out.

[halfling]

I didn't like the new Domuya girl body because she was so skinny. I like how they remolded the joint system to keep her flexible, but without the huge chunks out of her legs. But she looked sick to me, so when I get my Fay, she's coming with the old style Flexibody.

I wonder if the the fashion doll trend has anything to do with real people on average getting fatter and fatter.

[byouyuuken]

I thought Garnet and Ruby were criticized as "fashion dolls" more because of their face sculpt, not the SD16 body in particular...although when Olivia first came out a lot thought that she resembled "Barbie".

Meanwhile I don't think that the criticism is as you said, pointed towards girls alone. The Dollshes certainly had their share of criticism at the disproportionally long thighs, and a lot of people have embraced more muscular bodies instead of the curvy CP ones. Dolls are certainly all idealized objects---they represent and exaggerate what we think is beauty in the human figure, which is different towards each person's own bias whether it be long legs, muscles, big chests, or thin waists.

[bunnydots]

Originally Posted by Wotan

So, I guess my question is largely a rhetorical one: aren't some of the male doll body sculpts every bit as exaggerated and idealized as the worst offenders among female sculpts? If they are, where's the criticism for them?

Of course they are - and I think the whole trend towards the "buffer" guy bodies is sort of an attempt at realism. True, most guys are not in that good of a shape, and some of the buff guys are also incredibly exaggerated (Senior Delfs anyone?) but you have to admit that an Iple Buff looks more realistic, proportionally speaking, than a super-skinny Dollshe.

There's a very simple reason why the guys don't get criticized more: because the vast majority of doll hobbyists are women. Having a skinny Hound doesn't disturbe a woman's own body image in the slightest. There is no feeling that a fashion ideal is being forced on them, because the Hound is a guy doll. You can love that skinny all you want without feeling any sort of cultural ick inside yourself. The minute you take that body and make it female, though, the whole "fashion doll" idea and culture rears its head big time, and discomfort sets in.

[lyrajean]

I think many women are sensitive to body image more so than men.

While some of the new boy body sculpts are no more realistic than SD16 girls: i.e. Sd16 boy or Dollmore model boys -those muscles take a lot of work and not all guys have the bone structure to be so lanky to begin with-

Our society does value men who have a wider range of acceptable physiques. There are more fat/old/ ugly male celerities than there are women.

Aside from a few female comedians who ofent get by by making fun of themselves (their supposed inability to control their eating, fattness etc.) there are not a lot of public figures who are women who are not at least passably attractive, and the ideal promoted by women's fashion industry is not attainable or healthy for 90% of real women.

Most doll collectors are female, and many of us fled here from fashion dolls who seem to continue to promote an unrealistic ideal. I myself found the SD10 body to be a welcome relief. Here was a doll I could dress in fashionable clothing that had a "ideal" body a real teenager could possess.

It's not just the dolls, its the overwhelming "everything' in our society that tells us we aren't good enough.

[bunnydots]

Originally Posted by halfling

I wonder if the the fashion doll trend has anything to do with real people on average getting fatter and fatter.

I think it's partly because people have a skinny-is-beautiful ideal that carries over into doll tastes, but let's also be realistic about it. A skinny doll requires less resin than a buff or chubby doll. A skinny doll is also much easier to fit into clothes, and much easier to get a good photographic angle on, just like a skinny person. The main reason fashion models are for the most part skinny is that it just makes dressing and photographing them easier. It's also cheaper to dress skinny people - and skinny dolls - because less material is required.

I bet the doll companies can make a LOT more money off some of those doll outfits than they can off dolls themselves, because the outfits are cheaper to make - cloth simply doesn't cost as much as resin, nor does it require the same amount of specialized skills or equipment to whip up a bunch of doll outfits. So the fashion doll trend to me is also probably partly "let's sell more outfits, make more money!"

[Tiarah]

The "fashion doll" look of Ruby and Garnet, for me, is coming from the face. I like the SD16 girl body, but I really dislike their headmolds. It also doesn't help that the faceup is exaggerated and the hair & outfits give a "stiff" look to them.

When it comes to self image and resin body preferences, it really does come down to what each person finds ideal in a body. I, personally, don't like the tall, lanky boys. I don't even like short lanky boys. lol I have 1 big boy, a Souldoll Paris, and I got him because I fell in love with his face sculpt. It wasn't until I had him for a while that I began to appreciate the sculpting of his body. After seeing other companies bodies, I've realized that I really like the bigger/stockier boys more.

Although, with the girl dolls, I tend to like all the different bodies. I mean, there are definitely bodies I'm not the most fond of (again, the taller & skinnier ones) but that's because I don't find that attractive. It's not ideal for me.

Really, to each their own. But I think when speaking about the fashion doll aesthetic, it really comes down to the face sculpt, the faceup, the wig, and clothes. If one or 2 of these things had been changed on Ruby and Garnet, I don't think they would have had so many people disliking them due to the "fashion doll" look.

Just my random $0.02 ^_^

[Rhian]

I love the more childlike proportions of the Volks SD10 girl dolls, and would say that they're my favourite doll bodies so far. However, I also love the curvy, more adult U-noa girl body, so I don't think I have a problem with female dolls or with the female body being portrayed in different ways (the optional U-noa torso, for example, is very busty!). I don't mind if dolls are skinny or chubby, as long as the proportions are beautiful. I suppose I wouldn't want a really skeletal doll - unless it was a very stylised sculpt and the skinniness was an aspect of that style.

Trying to pin down what I don't like about the SD16 girl body, I think it's the strange proportions. She has what I'd call a swimmer's (or a rower's) body, with those broad shoulders and relatively slim hips. It's not that she's thin, or busty, or that subconsciously I envy her, it's that the combination of BJD and fashion doll proportions do nothing for me. The unclothed body isn't interesting, it looks generic (probably because I've seen and owned 'fashion dolls' myself and am all too familiar with the body type). On the other hand, I sometimes find myself leaving my U-noa girl undressed because her body sculpt is really beautiful and interesting.

[s2kitty]

Originally Posted by Rhian

The unclothed body isn't interesting, it looks generic (probably because I've seen and owned 'fashion dolls' myself and am all too familiar with the body type).

It is the exact opposite for me. I love having my SD16 girl lay about in form fitting or skimpy clothing because I adore the sculpt of her body from her muscled tummy to her ankles. I'm totally in love with her ankles & feet and stare at them frequently. Her shoulders are a bit broad - but heck I have huge shoulders myself. I'm really keen on my girls shoulder blades and her belly button as well. For me, Amelia is not a "Fashion" doll as she is much softer in the face and more muscled in the body. She is however a shoe fiend... I almost never have the "flat feet" on her because I love the way the fused ankles are sculpted and dainty. And to those that think I think this way because I'm not used to "fashion" dolls - I have a couple of Tonners, several Barbies, dolls from around the world, porcelain dolls, Pullips, etc. For some reason the SD16 girl really does seem quite different to me. Maybe, because I'm mildly obsessed with clothing Maddy (Amelia), I don't know. I don't think it has anything to do with my body image as I'm short and rotund.

I also totally adore my SD17 boy with his lean muscled build. He even has muscles sculpted at the tops of his shoulders and bottom of his feet! However his legs are un-realistically long and I think his feet are actually a little too small for his body. He's not entirely in proportion and I love him as much as my Amelia and I don't think of him as "fashion" either.

Calling any ABJD "too fashion doll" is a bit of an insult to me, because no matter how stylized, I don't think of any ABJD as being "fashion doll" - not even the ones I don't care for. Possibly because there is more to them than dressing them. Pretty evident that I don't really "get" what "fashion doll" means to most people. *shrug* I'm happy with how I feel about my dolls and that is what really matters.

[Guide]

I think the appearance of the SD16 dolls is deliberately designed to tempt the high end collectors of fashion dolls into buying BJDs. The proportions and face sculpts are very much in the style of Tonner dolls, and the proportions are clearly the same type of thing- very much a catwalk figure! I honestly think that Volks is being very clever with these dolls, and is using them as a gateway to get more people into their products.

Myself, I like the SD16 body, although not so much the faces. They look very harsh and cold, and I prefer more friendly looking dolls! ^_-

And yes, the male dolls are just as unrealistic, but its harder to tell with the more immature bodies (such as Luts Delf and the SD13 bodies). However, take one look at a naked Souldoll and they are way too buff to be reprisentative of all us men out there! XD

[Rhian]

Originally Posted by s2kitty

Calling any ABJD "too fashion doll" is a bit of an insult to me, because no matter how stylized, I don't think of any ABJD as being "fashion doll" - not even the ones I don't care for. Possibly because there is more to them than dressing them. Pretty evident that I don't really "get" what "fashion doll" means to most people. *shrug* I'm happy with how I feel about my dolls and that is what really matters.

Of course that was only my opinion - I don't mean to make a sweeping generalisation about what the SD16 girl body is or isn't! As with all dolls that aren't to my taste, I'm delighted for those who do get them and love them. Whether a doll is attractive or not is entirely subjective, and as you say, your own feelings are the only ones that matter.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

Originally Posted by Wotan

with a common complaint being how unrealistic and idealized the figure of this body is (broad shoulders, narrow waist and hips, long legs, etc.)

While I can agree with the narrow waist and hip issue, the fact that several slim MSD gals easily fit into "fashion doll" clothing says something to me. I also have to say that BJDs have, in my eyes, the most types of doll with disproportionately long legs I've ever seen.

I do agree that female "fashion dolls" have a different look. They are much more blank in the face, their feet are generally too small and unsculpted, as are their hands, they don't have any hips and most have no bottoms. The heads really seem to lack sculpting at all, with most of the personality/character being done by painting.

Male "fashion dolls" are so awful as to be laughable. It seems that in the bjd world things are opposite, with much more attention lavished on a variety of heads and bodies for the boys while there is less variety in girls bodies (except for bust size choices).

Originally Posted by Wotan

So, I guess my question is largely a rhetorical one: aren't some of the male doll body sculpts every bit as exaggerated and idealized as the worst offenders among female sculpts?

Oh I sure think so.

The hounds and the model dolls are so horribly thin and gangly with that sort of look the meth head punks had when I was in school. Not what I find attractive in the least.

Then there's the Jace and Abadon crew of Marvel comic builds. Again not what I like but sure, why not have them available?

Dolls are all about stylisation. I'm just glad that in bjds there are several different styles to pick from.

[Taco]

Unrealistic proportions happen in guy dolls just as much. Honestly, I don't see it as a problem, though. While it does seem like more and more companies are putting out tall busty gals, there really is a lot of variety out there from skinny and busty, to smaller chested, smaller hips, wider hips and with the boys tall and lanky, broader and more muscular, some with looong legs, some with more realistic proportions.

Personally, I wouldn't want everyting to be realistic--I like stylization and variety. Much of what I find attractive depends on how the body and head look together, the overall look of the doll, how well it fits the character I have in mind, etc. For instance I like the SD16 girl body and once I saw owner pics with different faceups, I liked the Olivia head. However, I'm not fond of that head on that body. It's just a personal thing, and I admit that I swap heads and bodies around quite a bit to get exactly what I want. My boy bodies really run the gamut from broad and and muscular, to broad and less muscular, to slender and leggy--all dependant on the character I had in mind when I bought the body.

As for people compaining more about girls looking like fashion dolls than boys, I have to say that boy bjds tend not to look like male fashion dolls. Of all the pics I've seen of fashion dolls (including pretty repaints), I have yet to see a male fashion doll that really has much in common with a male bjd. It seems that the fashion doll makers do a better job with their girls than their guys. No offence to any one out there that enjoys male fashion dolls--there maybe a fashion doll boy out there that will prove me wrong, who knows.

[s2kitty]

Originally Posted by sgtgeorgecarter

I do agree that female "fashion dolls" have a different look. They are much more blank in the face, their feet are generally too small and unsculpted, as are their hands, they don't have any hips and most have no bottoms. The heads really seem to lack sculpting at all, with most of the personality/character being done by painting.

You just reminded me of one very good reason the SD16 girl does not find the standard "fashion doll" shape. Look at her butt. She has serious booty. Strip one down and you will really see what I mean. And now I've amused myself far too much in this thread.

[Ridgeway]

Once upon a time I had a huge collection of Barbies and Genes until I found they had lost my interest. I was still collecting but I no longer enjoyed the actual dolls. Once I saw BJDs I was fascinated by dolls again, mostly for everything that was different about them. I sold my entire collection of fashion dolls to get my Bermann.

I've never said that other people shouldn't like or enjoy the new SD16 girls, they simply are not for me. I do like my range of boy dolls, but my favorite girl bodies are more thickly built, like SD13s. What I'd like to see is a BJD girl who is sculpted like an athlete not more like a model, hopefully the Dollstown 15 girl body will start a trend in that direction.

[saranilla]

Originally Posted by Guide

I think the appearance of the SD16 dolls is deliberately designed to tempt the high end collectors of fashion dolls into buying BJDs. The proportions and face sculpts are very much in the style of Tonner dolls, and the proportions are clearly the same type of thing- very much a catwalk figure! I honestly think that Volks is being very clever with these dolls, and is using them as a gateway to get more people into their products.

Myself, I like the SD16 body, although not so much the faces. They look very harsh and cold, and I prefer more friendly looking dolls! ^_-

And yes, the male dolls are just as unrealistic, but its harder to tell with the more immature bodies (such as Luts Delf and the SD13 bodies). However, take one look at a naked Souldoll and they are way too buff to be reprisentative of all us men out there! XD

Guide, I totally agree with you. The minute I saw these two new Volks girls "American Model" slipped into my mind. It is a sad thing. I love the look of Olivia and Amelia, but these two new girls are like you said "harsh."

And yes, look at Hound. He looks to me like an Anorexic! He is truly idealized, but when clothed he is fantastic.

[Bel]

I don't think any body I have here is particularly realistic. I can't stand naked, sickly, spidery Dollshe bodies, but I do like that I can pile bulky sweaters and coats on them and have a nice result; if the bodies themselves were bulkier, and I dressed them as I want to, I'd end up with a pinhead on top of a rotund pile of furs.

I'm not really fond of most girl dolls due to the prevailing face styles rather than any concerns about their bodies being overly-idealized. My large-bust Unoa spends most of her time topless because her (completely unrealistic) sculpt is just so damn pretty!

I don't know anything about the SD-16 girls, but if I were to say a bjd looks like a fashion doll, I'd mean that the face seemed overly long and the expression vacant. But that's just me.

[bunnydots]

Originally Posted by Ridgeway

What I'd like to see is a BJD girl who is sculpted like an athlete not more like a model, hopefully the Dollstown 15 girl body will start a trend in that direction.

I agree. I hate those little nipped-in waists on girl dolls. To me, nothing says "fashion doll" more than that unrealistic middle. No actual healthy female I know has a midsection like that. They seem to be built to appeal to the type of collectors who dress their dolls in period corset gowns, but they don't have the silhouette of a normal modern female going about her business.

[Soula]

So many people, so many different tastes. I collect dolls, but have only little interest in fashion. Clothes are more a functionality to me.
And it's the bored, haughty 'catwalk vibe' that puts me off mostly. I just prefer dolls that appear they could take a joke and giggle, have fun.

[Wotan]

Interesting replies, everyone! Judging from the range of opinions I've seen here, it's a complicated subject, and I think it's one worth clarifying.

While the use of the term "fashion doll" as a criticism doesn't exactly bother me, it does... resonate badly with me when I read it, and I think my interest in asking the questions to start this post was to get some perspective on how others define the term.

A couple of posters have brought up the notion of body image. I'm gonna stay way the hell away from that one. The most I'll say on that is that all ABJDs represent some kind of idealized fantasy representation of the human form.

I think the part of the fashion doll criticism that does make me furrow my brows is the "us versus them" mentality that it seems to express: if you have a BJD, throw those Barbies and Tonners away; if you want to stick with your fashion dolls, you're not ready to "step up" to the world of strung dolls. This does baffle me a bit. It seems to assume quite a bit about... well, everyone. I don't see where the two have to be mutually exclusive, and I don't think it's fair to embrace one hobby simply because it's not the other. That's not loving the BJD hobby; it's hating the fashion doll market. That seems every bit as fickle and capricious as the fandom elements of the hobby, IMHO.

... my god, that last paragraph sounds awful. I'll stand by it for now, though, and abandon it later as pressure mounts. Right now, I'll just reiterate: it seems a bit cliquish. Maybe I'm just touchy about it because I'm on the periphery of the community by virtue of gender alone (and not doing too well to shore up my position with comments like the above! )

Thanks for the comments, everyone, and thanks for the patience and tolerance you've demonstrated with them!