Fashion dolls/unrealistic proportions-- just a problem with female dolls?

[Wotan]

I've seen a criticism leveled at Garnet and Ruby, and at several of the female doll sculpts in general. There seems to be concern about-- and dislike of-- the "fashion doll" body type typified by the SD16 girl body, with a common complaint being how unrealistic and idealized the figure of this body is (broad shoulders, narrow waist and hips, long legs, etc.)

Now, before we go any further, I'd like to say that I'm not blind to the circumstances of these views. Most of the participants in this hobby are females; that is what it is, neither positive nor negative. I'm not saying we need more males to participate, and I'm not saying it should be exclusively a female pasttime. The demographics of the ABJD hobbyist are going to largely dictate preferences; if/when the demographic shifts as new people come into the hobby, there may be changes, but currently I think we can agree that there are definite overarching characteristics of ABJD owners.

So, I guess my question is largely a rhetorical one: aren't some of the male doll body sculpts every bit as exaggerated and idealized as the worst offenders among female sculpts? If they are, where's the criticism for them? It's hardly fair to criticize female dolls for being unrealistic or idealized while embracing sculpts like the Dollshe or CP boys carte blanche. Guys just aren't built that way, just as girls aren't built like SD16 girls.

Listen: this is mainly an exercise in metacognition. There's no right or wrong in our aesthetic preferences. I say "Good for you!" whether you like your boyos tall and skinny (Dollshe) or short and stocky (SD13), and I daresay many of you echo that sentiment when i squee over my SD16 girl (either that, or you don't really know what to make of a guy my size going "squee!" over a doll :sweat) It just seems like the "unrealistic" appellation is a bit artificial and one-sided, not to mention laden with innuendo, and I wanted to verbalize it.

Sorry about the dry read, and it's probably a little more direct than some might find comfortable. I don't want to be confrontational; I intend this as an open discussion. It just would have taken me at least twice as long to try and couch my thoughts in innocuous terms, and I know we're all mature enough not to take this kind of thing personally. :D Now, feel free to rip my guts out. :XD

[halfling]

I didn't like the new Domuya girl body because she was so skinny. I like how they remolded the joint system to keep her flexible, but without the huge chunks out of her legs. But she looked sick to me, so when I get my Fay, she's coming with the old style Flexibody.

I wonder if the the fashion doll trend has anything to do with real people on average getting fatter and fatter.

[byouyuuken]

I thought Garnet and Ruby were criticized as "fashion dolls" more because of their face sculpt, not the SD16 body in particular...although when Olivia first came out a lot thought that she resembled "Barbie".

Meanwhile I don't think that the criticism is as you said, pointed towards girls alone. The Dollshes certainly had their share of criticism at the disproportionally long thighs, and a lot of people have embraced more muscular bodies instead of the curvy CP ones. Dolls are certainly all idealized objects---they represent and exaggerate what we think is beauty in the human figure, which is different towards each person's own bias whether it be long legs, muscles, big chests, or thin waists.

[bunnydots]

So, I guess my question is largely a rhetorical one: aren't some of the male doll body sculpts every bit as exaggerated and idealized as the worst offenders among female sculpts? If they are, where's the criticism for them?

Of course they are - and I think the whole trend towards the "buffer" guy bodies is sort of an attempt at realism. True, most guys are not in that good of a shape, and some of the buff guys are also incredibly exaggerated (Senior Delfs anyone?) but you have to admit that an Iple Buff looks more realistic, proportionally speaking, than a super-skinny Dollshe.

There's a very simple reason why the guys don't get criticized more: because the vast majority of doll hobbyists are women. Having a skinny Hound doesn't disturbe a woman's own body image in the slightest. There is no feeling that a fashion ideal is being forced on them, because the Hound is a guy doll. You can love that skinny all you want without feeling any sort of cultural ick inside yourself. The minute you take that body and make it female, though, the whole "fashion doll" idea and culture rears its head big time, and discomfort sets in.

[lyrajean]

I think many women are sensitive to body image more so than men.

While some of the new boy body sculpts are no more realistic than SD16 girls: i.e. Sd16 boy or Dollmore model boys -those muscles take a lot of work and not all guys have the bone structure to be so lanky to begin with-

Our society does value men who have a wider range of acceptable physiques. There are more fat/old/ ugly male celerities than there are women.

Aside from a few female comedians who ofent get by by making fun of themselves (their supposed inability to control their eating, fattness etc.) there are not a lot of public figures who are women who are not at least passably attractive, and the ideal promoted by women's fashion industry is not attainable or healthy for 90% of real women.

Most doll collectors are female, and many of us fled here from fashion dolls who seem to continue to promote an unrealistic ideal. I myself found the SD10 body to be a welcome relief. Here was a doll I could dress in fashionable clothing that had a "ideal" body a real teenager could possess.

It's not just the dolls, its the overwhelming "everything' in our society that tells us we aren't good enough.

[bunnydots]

I wonder if the the fashion doll trend has anything to do with real people on average getting fatter and fatter.

I think it's partly because people have a skinny-is-beautiful ideal that carries over into doll tastes, but let's also be realistic about it. A skinny doll requires less resin than a buff or chubby doll. A skinny doll is also much easier to fit into clothes, and much easier to get a good photographic angle on, just like a skinny person. The main reason fashion models are for the most part skinny is that it just makes dressing and photographing them easier. It's also cheaper to dress skinny people - and skinny dolls - because less material is required.

I bet the doll companies can make a LOT more money off some of those doll outfits than they can off dolls themselves, because the outfits are cheaper to make - cloth simply doesn't cost as much as resin, nor does it require the same amount of specialized skills or equipment to whip up a bunch of doll outfits. So the fashion doll trend to me is also probably partly "let's sell more outfits, make more money!"

[Tiarah]

The "fashion doll" look of Ruby and Garnet, for me, is coming from the face. I like the SD16 girl body, but I really dislike their headmolds. It also doesn't help that the faceup is exaggerated and the hair & outfits give a "stiff" look to them.

When it comes to self image and resin body preferences, it really does come down to what each person finds ideal in a body. I, personally, don't like the tall, lanky boys. I don't even like short lanky boys. lol I have 1 big boy, a Souldoll Paris, and I got him because I fell in love with his face sculpt. It wasn't until I had him for a while that I began to appreciate the sculpting of his body. After seeing other companies bodies, I've realized that I really like the bigger/stockier boys more.

Although, with the girl dolls, I tend to like all the different bodies. I mean, there are definitely bodies I'm not the most fond of (again, the taller & skinnier ones) but that's because I don't find that attractive. It's not ideal for me.

Really, to each their own. But I think when speaking about the fashion doll aesthetic, it really comes down to the face sculpt, the faceup, the wig, and clothes. If one or 2 of these things had been changed on Ruby and Garnet, I don't think they would have had so many people disliking them due to the "fashion doll" look.

Just my random $0.02 ^_^

[Rhian]

I love the more childlike proportions of the Volks SD10 girl dolls, and would say that they're my favourite doll bodies so far. However, I also love the curvy, more adult U-noa girl body, so I don't think I have a problem with female dolls or with the female body being portrayed in different ways (the optional U-noa torso, for example, is very busty!). I don't mind if dolls are skinny or chubby, as long as the proportions are beautiful. I suppose I wouldn't want a really skeletal doll - unless it was a very stylised sculpt and the skinniness was an aspect of that style.

Trying to pin down what I don't like about the SD16 girl body, I think it's the strange proportions. She has what I'd call a swimmer's (or a rower's) body, with those broad shoulders and relatively slim hips. It's not that she's thin, or busty, or that subconsciously I envy her, it's that the combination of BJD and fashion doll proportions do nothing for me. The unclothed body isn't interesting, it looks generic (probably because I've seen and owned 'fashion dolls' myself and am all too familiar with the body type). On the other hand, I sometimes find myself leaving my U-noa girl undressed because her body sculpt is really beautiful and interesting.

[s2kitty]

The unclothed body isn't interesting, it looks generic (probably because I've seen and owned 'fashion dolls' myself and am all too familiar with the body type).

It is the exact opposite for me. I love having my SD16 girl lay about in form fitting or skimpy clothing because I adore the sculpt of her body from her muscled tummy to her ankles. I'm totally in love with her ankles & feet and stare at them frequently. Her shoulders are a bit broad - but heck I have huge shoulders myself. I'm really keen on my girls shoulder blades and her belly button as well. For me, Amelia is not a "Fashion" doll as she is much softer in the face and more muscled in the body. She is however a shoe fiend... I almost never have the "flat feet" on her because I love the way the fused ankles are sculpted and dainty. And to those that think I think this way because I'm not used to "fashion" dolls - I have a couple of Tonners, several Barbies, dolls from around the world, porcelain dolls, Pullips, etc. For some reason the SD16 girl really does seem quite different to me. Maybe, because I'm mildly obsessed with clothing Maddy (Amelia), I don't know. I don't think it has anything to do with my body image as I'm short and rotund.

I also totally adore my SD17 boy with his lean muscled build. He even has muscles sculpted at the tops of his shoulders and bottom of his feet! However his legs are un-realistically long and I think his feet are actually a little too small for his body. He's not entirely in proportion and I love him as much as my Amelia and I don't think of him as "fashion" either.

Calling any ABJD "too fashion doll" is a bit of an insult to me, because no matter how stylized, I don't think of any ABJD as being "fashion doll" - not even the ones I don't care for. Possibly because there is more to them than dressing them. Pretty evident that I don't really "get" what "fashion doll" means to most people. *shrug* I'm happy with how I feel about my dolls and that is what really matters.

[Guide]

I think the appearance of the SD16 dolls is deliberately designed to tempt the high end collectors of fashion dolls into buying BJDs. The proportions and face sculpts are very much in the style of Tonner dolls, and the proportions are clearly the same type of thing- very much a catwalk figure! I honestly think that Volks is being very clever with these dolls, and is using them as a gateway to get more people into their products.

Myself, I like the SD16 body, although not so much the faces. They look very harsh and cold, and I prefer more friendly looking dolls! ^_-

And yes, the male dolls are just as unrealistic, but its harder to tell with the more immature bodies (such as Luts Delf and the SD13 bodies). However, take one look at a naked Souldoll and they are way too buff to be reprisentative of all us men out there! XD

[Rhian]

Calling any ABJD "too fashion doll" is a bit of an insult to me, because no matter how stylized, I don't think of any ABJD as being "fashion doll" - not even the ones I don't care for. Possibly because there is more to them than dressing them. Pretty evident that I don't really "get" what "fashion doll" means to most people. *shrug* I'm happy with how I feel about my dolls and that is what really matters.
Of course that was only my opinion - I don't mean to make a sweeping generalisation about what the SD16 girl body is or isn't! As with all dolls that aren't to my taste, I'm delighted for those who do get them and love them. Whether a doll is attractive or not is entirely subjective, and as you say, your own feelings are the only ones that matter. :)

[sgtgeorgecarter]

with a common complaint being how unrealistic and idealized the figure of this body is (broad shoulders, narrow waist and hips, long legs, etc.)


While I can agree with the narrow waist and hip issue, the fact that several slim MSD gals easily fit into "fashion doll" clothing says something to me. I also have to say that BJDs have, in my eyes, the most types of doll with disproportionately long legs I've ever seen.

I do agree that female "fashion dolls" have a different look. They are much more blank in the face, their feet are generally too small and unsculpted, as are their hands, they don't have any hips and most have no bottoms. The heads really seem to lack sculpting at all, with most of the personality/character being done by painting.

Male "fashion dolls" are so awful as to be laughable. It seems that in the bjd world things are opposite, with much more attention lavished on a variety of heads and bodies for the boys while there is less variety in girls bodies (except for bust size choices).


So, I guess my question is largely a rhetorical one: aren't some of the male doll body sculpts every bit as exaggerated and idealized as the worst offenders among female sculpts?

Oh I sure think so.

The hounds and the model dolls are so horribly thin and gangly with that sort of look the meth head punks had when I was in school. Not what I find attractive in the least.

Then there's the Jace and Abadon crew of Marvel comic builds. Again not what I like but sure, why not have them available?

Dolls are all about stylisation. I'm just glad that in bjds there are several different styles to pick from.

[Taco]

Unrealistic proportions happen in guy dolls just as much. Honestly, I don't see it as a problem, though. While it does seem like more and more companies are putting out tall busty gals, there really is a lot of variety out there from skinny and busty, to smaller chested, smaller hips, wider hips and with the boys tall and lanky, broader and more muscular, some with looong legs, some with more realistic proportions.

Personally, I wouldn't want everyting to be realistic--I like stylization and variety. Much of what I find attractive depends on how the body and head look together, the overall look of the doll, how well it fits the character I have in mind, etc. For instance I like the SD16 girl body and once I saw owner pics with different faceups, I liked the Olivia head. However, I'm not fond of that head on that body. It's just a personal thing, and I admit that I swap heads and bodies around quite a bit to get exactly what I want. My boy bodies really run the gamut from broad and and muscular, to broad and less muscular, to slender and leggy--all dependant on the character I had in mind when I bought the body.

As for people compaining more about girls looking like fashion dolls than boys, I have to say that boy bjds tend not to look like male fashion dolls. Of all the pics I've seen of fashion dolls (including pretty repaints), I have yet to see a male fashion doll that really has much in common with a male bjd. It seems that the fashion doll makers do a better job with their girls than their guys. No offence to any one out there that enjoys male fashion dolls--there maybe a fashion doll boy out there that will prove me wrong, who knows.

[s2kitty]

I do agree that female "fashion dolls" have a different look. They are much more blank in the face, their feet are generally too small and unsculpted, as are their hands, they don't have any hips and most have no bottoms. The heads really seem to lack sculpting at all, with most of the personality/character being done by painting.

You just reminded me of one very good reason the SD16 girl does not find the standard "fashion doll" shape. Look at her butt. She has serious booty. Strip one down and you will really see what I mean. And now I've amused myself far too much in this thread. :lol

[Ridgeway]

Once upon a time I had a huge collection of Barbies and Genes until I found they had lost my interest. I was still collecting but I no longer enjoyed the actual dolls. Once I saw BJDs I was fascinated by dolls again, mostly for everything that was different about them. I sold my entire collection of fashion dolls to get my Bermann.

I've never said that other people shouldn't like or enjoy the new SD16 girls, they simply are not for me. I do like my range of boy dolls, but my favorite girl bodies are more thickly built, like SD13s. What I'd like to see is a BJD girl who is sculpted like an athlete not more like a model, hopefully the Dollstown 15 girl body will start a trend in that direction.

[saranilla]

I think the appearance of the SD16 dolls is deliberately designed to tempt the high end collectors of fashion dolls into buying BJDs. The proportions and face sculpts are very much in the style of Tonner dolls, and the proportions are clearly the same type of thing- very much a catwalk figure! I honestly think that Volks is being very clever with these dolls, and is using them as a gateway to get more people into their products.

Myself, I like the SD16 body, although not so much the faces. They look very harsh and cold, and I prefer more friendly looking dolls! ^_-

And yes, the male dolls are just as unrealistic, but its harder to tell with the more immature bodies (such as Luts Delf and the SD13 bodies). However, take one look at a naked Souldoll and they are way too buff to be reprisentative of all us men out there! XD


Guide, I totally agree with you. The minute I saw these two new Volks girls "American Model" slipped into my mind. It is a sad thing. I love the look of Olivia and Amelia, but these two new girls are like you said "harsh."

And yes, look at Hound. He looks to me like an Anorexic! He is truly idealized, but when clothed he is fantastic.

[Bel]

I don't think any body I have here is particularly realistic. I can't stand naked, sickly, spidery Dollshe bodies, but I do like that I can pile bulky sweaters and coats on them and have a nice result; if the bodies themselves were bulkier, and I dressed them as I want to, I'd end up with a pinhead on top of a rotund pile of furs.

I'm not really fond of most girl dolls due to the prevailing face styles rather than any concerns about their bodies being overly-idealized. My large-bust Unoa spends most of her time topless because her (completely unrealistic) sculpt is just so damn pretty!

I don't know anything about the SD-16 girls, but if I were to say a bjd looks like a fashion doll, I'd mean that the face seemed overly long and the expression vacant. But that's just me.

[bunnydots]

What I'd like to see is a BJD girl who is sculpted like an athlete not more like a model, hopefully the Dollstown 15 girl body will start a trend in that direction.

I agree. I hate those little nipped-in waists on girl dolls. To me, nothing says "fashion doll" more than that unrealistic middle. No actual healthy female I know has a midsection like that. They seem to be built to appeal to the type of collectors who dress their dolls in period corset gowns, but they don't have the silhouette of a normal modern female going about her business.

[Soula]

So many people, so many different tastes. I collect dolls, but have only little interest in fashion. Clothes are more a functionality to me.
And it's the bored, haughty 'catwalk vibe' that puts me off mostly. I just prefer dolls that appear they could take a joke and giggle, have fun.

[Wotan]

Interesting replies, everyone! Judging from the range of opinions I've seen here, it's a complicated subject, and I think it's one worth clarifying.

While the use of the term "fashion doll" as a criticism doesn't exactly bother me, it does... resonate badly with me when I read it, and I think my interest in asking the questions to start this post was to get some perspective on how others define the term.

A couple of posters have brought up the notion of body image. I'm gonna stay way the hell away from that one. :sweat:sweat:sweat The most I'll say on that is that all ABJDs represent some kind of idealized fantasy representation of the human form.

I think the part of the fashion doll criticism that does make me furrow my brows is the "us versus them" mentality that it seems to express: if you have a BJD, throw those Barbies and Tonners away; if you want to stick with your fashion dolls, you're not ready to "step up" to the world of strung dolls. This does baffle me a bit. It seems to assume quite a bit about... well, everyone. I don't see where the two have to be mutually exclusive, and I don't think it's fair to embrace one hobby simply because it's not the other. That's not loving the BJD hobby; it's hating the fashion doll market. That seems every bit as fickle and capricious as the fandom elements of the hobby, IMHO.

... my god, that last paragraph sounds awful. :o I'll stand by it for now, though, and abandon it later as pressure mounts. :p;) Right now, I'll just reiterate: it seems a bit cliquish. Maybe I'm just touchy about it because I'm on the periphery of the community by virtue of gender alone (and not doing too well to shore up my position with comments like the above! :D)

Thanks for the comments, everyone, and thanks for the patience and tolerance you've demonstrated with them! :kisses

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I
I think the part of the fashion doll criticism that does make me furrow my brows is the "us versus them" mentality that it seems to express: if you have a BJD, throw those Barbies and Tonners away; if you want to stick with your fashion dolls, you're not ready to "step up" to the world of strung dolls. This does baffle me a bit. It seems to assume quite a bit about... well, everyone. I don't see where the two have to be mutually exclusive, and I don't think it's fair to embrace one hobby simply because it's not the other. That's not loving the BJD hobby; it's hating the fashion doll market. That seems every bit as fickle and capricious as the fandom elements of the hobby, IMHO.

I'm there with you on this. I don't get the hate. Sure I can see not liking them, I don't like Himsteads and baby dolls myself, but the antagonism seems weird.

[miss sha]

I think there is a bit of an us vs them mentality when "fashion doll" is used as a criticism. ABJDs have a subtle quality about them that makes them very different from fashion dolls. So when new ABJDs come out that seem more like a fashion doll than ABJD, it just means that the doll lacks that certain quality that sets it apart from fashion dolls. That doesn't mean they're necessarily better or worse, just that it's not the same.

[Ridgeway]

I think the part of the fashion doll criticism that does make me furrow my brows is the "us versus them" mentality that it seems to express: if you have a BJD, throw those Barbies and Tonners away; if you want to stick with your fashion dolls, you're not ready to "step up" to the world of strung dolls. This does baffle me a bit. It seems to assume quite a bit about... well, everyone. I don't see where the two have to be mutually exclusive, and I don't think it's fair to embrace one hobby simply because it's not the other. That's not loving the BJD hobby; it's hating the fashion doll market. That seems every bit as fickle and capricious as the fandom elements of the hobby, IMHO.

It's not an awful statement at all. I can see where you're coming from.

My collecting style is very, very focused. Even when I'm collecting something I run a very tight ship. Partly becasue I'm anti-clutter and partly because there are two collectors here. If I start collecting something, my partner is close behind (and she collects in a more excessive fashion than I do). I'm also not terribly sentimental. When I'm done with something I move on, selling off the old to bring in the new. I sever all ties if they don't connect with my new direction. When I say I moved on from fashon dolls, I mean it. I still think they're pretty but I honestly have no interest in them anymore. That may offend people that find themselves able to collect dolls generally, but how else can I say it? When I look at my BJDs I see something I've given a sort of "life" to. Other dolls now seem empty and dead to me.

[nakitama]

Wotan, you're so awesome :p I don't have anything productive to add to this thread, but I just wanted to say that ;)

[halfling]

I think it's partly because people have a skinny-is-beautiful ideal that carries over into doll tastes, but let's also be realistic about it. A skinny doll requires less resin than a buff or chubby doll. A skinny doll is also much easier to fit into clothes, and much easier to get a good photographic angle on, just like a skinny person. The main reason fashion models are for the most part skinny is that it just makes dressing and photographing them easier. It's also cheaper to dress skinny people - and skinny dolls - because less material is required.

I bet the doll companies can make a LOT more money off some of those doll outfits than they can off dolls themselves, because the outfits are cheaper to make - cloth simply doesn't cost as much as resin, nor does it require the same amount of specialized skills or equipment to whip up a bunch of doll outfits. So the fashion doll trend to me is also probably partly "let's sell more outfits, make more money!"

A "skinny" doll isn't any harder to fit clothing on than a non skinny doll. Actually, Barbie sized dolls are harder to sew for than MSDs because they are just smaller.

The idea that uber skinny people look better than normal weight people is just personal perception. I don't think too skinny girls look appealing at all.

There was already a wide variety of dolls about the same size with the 60 cm size, and they could wear at least some of the same clothes, so the trend towards fashion dolls has to be explained by something else, perhaps using less resin.

[gayle]

I am not crazy about any of the SD16 Volks girls, but I do actually like my girl dolls somewhat fashion doll styled.

Why? Because I love fashion and I love to sew, and the longer, leaner proportions of the somewhat more fashion doll styled BJD, wear clothes better IMHO.

[Lady Brick]

I hate those little nipped-in waists on girl dolls. To me, nothing says "fashion doll" more than that unrealistic middle. No actual healthy female I know has a midsection like that.

Err, I do, actually :sweat While I would agree that most dolls (ABJD) are very idealized and not representative of the average person, I wouldn't say I hate any particular feature or that no healthy person has _____ like that, because there probably is someone out there who does.

I collected fashion dolls previous to BJDs and still do to an extent. To me, the most important thing is if the features work for that particular doll, not if they would look right on a human being. Dolls aren't living things and thus don't have the same structural requirements. Heck, when I was a kid, I thought the reason Barbie had breasts was to keep her tube tops from falling down :D

[sgtgeorgecarter]

Heck, when I was a kid, I thought the reason Barbie had breasts was to keep her tube tops from falling down :D

AHHAHAHAHA so did I!

[StephG]

I've collected fashion dolls since the 80's - all kinds, and a lot of them are not terribly realistic. When I discovered BJDs, I realized I was getting close to my own personal doll nirvana. ;)

I prefer female dolls that don't look painfully thin, but perhaps that's because I'm not. :D My Half Elf has the body that I think is most pleasing to look at, and not oddly unrealistic. She has fairly wide hips, has a good-sized bust, pretty heavy thighs - all of which I applaud, because she looks like a woman! She's got some meat on those bones. But then, my CP girls are also pretty curvy. My personal taste doesn't run to long, thin female dolls.

For a smaller female body, my favorite would have to be Narae, for elegance and posability. Not too skinny, not too heavy...just slender and feminine.

Now for the male dolls... My favorites of the male bodies are Dollshe Hound and Unidoll UH08 - aha! You thought I was going to say Jace, right? Nope...UH08 has a beautifully balanced male body with nice shoulders, attractive legs (in and out of pants), and arms with some shape to them without being bulky. He poses beautifully and easily.

The Dollshe body is very different. He looks like a Hound, which was the whole point. This is a very stylized doll, with loooong legs and long hands, like long dog legs and long dog paws. Even Hound's upper lip has a hound-like shape. He is a human dog, with legs that would lope along just like a dog would. When he sprawls, it's with a doglike elegance. He's masculine (if you want him to be - and that's a different subject), yet lanky and drapey. I don't think he was ever meant to look completely realistic as a man - more as a Dog/Man. I find it irrestistible and charming!

But as to whether dolls should or shouldn't be realistic or stylized beyond realism...I don't think there's a right or a wrong - it allows for a large audience to satisfy their own tastes, and doll companies are smart to offer a broad range of sizes, shapes and styles.

[Kim]

Err, I do, actually :sweat While I would agree that most dolls (ABJD) are very idealized and not representative of the average person, I wouldn't say I hate any particular feature or that no healthy person has _____ like that, because there probably is someone out there who does.

Amen! While you would not believe it now thanks to a diet of entirely way too much McDonald's, it always bothers me when people go on about how the CP girl body is a caricature of a female body because it's exactly how I am shaped. Very narrow shoulders, very large breasts, small waist, large hips, and very skinny legs. Hourglass figures do exist on women who aren't famous or kill themselves to look that way.

All that being said, I'm actually more critical of male bodies because they're what I am interested in owning and looking at. My fave body is actually the Unoa male one because it's the right combination of slender bishounen and masculine musculature.

[SDink]

I can only speak for myself but I am a HUGE fan of Dollshe boys and their sculpts, they may be disproportionate but the the sculpt of the body looks so real to me and has so much details ie: the veins in the hands, to me most girl dolls seem to lack these small details that I crave.

Most girl dolls I have seen always have very skinny arms and legs and very small hands with no details, I am not knocking them by any means but I would love to have a girl to match my Dollshe boys but I have yet seen a sculpt that appeals to me and would look perfect with them.

I did fall in love with the Dollstown girls because they have a more realistic look but their heads were too big compared to the dollshe boys.

This is just my personal opinion and I am forever looking for that perfect match so then I can have at least one straight Dollshe boy...LOL

[Songblade]

It's not that Ruby and Garnet have an SD16 body that bothers me (I really really love Olivia's sculpt), but their face. I own a Souldoll boy because I feel he's not too skinny and has enough resin meat. The only complaint I have with my incoming Finn is that her body looks like a sinewy skeleton which I will promptly cover in clothes. Though I like some Hounds because of what their owners have done to them, I feel their tall lankiness is not appealing though I know a handful of men who have that body (and I'll be marrying one x.x)... it's just not something I'd want in a doll?

YES I will also agree that Ruby and Garnet's faces are cold and harsh, like plenty of Victoria's Secret models... whereas if Olivia were a real woman, I'd feel comfortable talking to her. hahah Ruby and Garnet look like they're judging me for the price tags of my clothes XD

[Shankula]

I personally love the female bodies, and don't mind the more fashion doll bodies of the SD16's...what I *don't* like is the utterly unimaginative sculpts that the two new girls have. They are 'ho hum' and so vacant to me--no real spark to them. That combined with a body that won't fit ANY of the clothing I have make for a doll with zero appeal.

[Pooki]

In my opinion, I think there might be two opposing viewpoints, that are in the majority, regarding fashion doll bodies and how they relate to women. I think that on one side, there are women who love the fashion proportions precisely because they (the women themselves) don't look like that. I remember on a Madame Alexander Cissy board, several people shared that they liked Cissy because she had a younger and prettier look that they wished they had. Cissy allowed those women to live out a fantasy life that they didn't have in reality. I don't see anything wrong w/ that, and in fact, think it's healthy to have an alternative that satisfies what you're missing in your own life---and Cissy is quite different in proportions to the "fashion" bodies that we're talking about on this board. I think many Tonner collectors think in a similar vein. On the other side, there are those who dislike the proportions because they speak to a certain stereotyping of what popular culture seems to dictate that females "should" look like. I like a certain fashion proportion, but in real life, I dislike how popular media these days are telling girls that they have to have a bra size of 34C or higher to be considered "pretty". I think it's actually worse in anime, as the female bodies in anime seem to be even more unrealistic. I like all kinds of proportions, but I'm pretty certain I wouldn't want a doll with rolls of fat...so real-life proportions in dolls may not always be such a good thing either.

Then, there are the little dolls, that are not grown up proportions. Many of the little and tiny bjd have extremely unrealistic proportions---I've never seen any children walking around with big heads, gigantic eyes, and miniscule hands & feet like some of the small bjds that I've seen; yet, nobody makes a mention about that?

[Sand3]

A lot of the boy dolls have a problem of being more childish, while some of the girl dolls look like children's bodies, others actually have a mature body structure (and I don't just mean breasts), but there are only a very few male dolls that have an adult-looking body (and I don't just mean genitalia). Some of them do have more developed muscular shapes, but even then, you can't find nearly so many adult male chests as female, and most of them seem to have fairly weak shoulders as well. While Hound's do have more mature-looking features and faces than most male dolls, they're almost laughably skinny (seriously, I have a friend with proportions similar to a Hound doll and he looks ridiculously gangly). While a fair number of the female dolls in the world of BJDs can look natural and elegant outside of their clothes, Bishonen House is the only company I've found that seems to have put an effort into doing the same for male dolls (and again, I don't just mean genitalia).
I also take some issue with the two levels of height and nothing in between. I want my dolls to look good together and be the appropriate sizes in relation to one and other, but there are only really two height levels, 43cm and 60cm. I want a doll that's around 50cm to be an adolecent or short adult, between a child height (43) and an adult height (60). I fortunately am a doll maker and already have plans in the works for a mid-sized doll, but I'm sure there must be other collectors who want that middle-size that are not sculptors. Really, I think a lot of the solution is in the small business doll-makers that have begun to spring up in the last couple years. I think Donn is probably the best known at this point because of the issue with a realistic (although, yes, idealized) adult male doll, but I know a few sculptors that have made female dolls with a more full-figured look and other shapes different from the standard Volks and Luts bodies. The DoA sculptor's thread has really come along in the last couple years so that now, among the amiture works, there are also some very talented artists cropping up and starting small-time doll businesses in similar sizes and aesthetics to the standard ones, but with more personality and variation.

[Lady Brick]

I also take some issue with the two levels of height and nothing in between. I want my dolls to look good together and be the appropriate sizes in relation to one and other, but there are only really two height levels, 43cm and 60cm. I want a doll that's around 50cm to be an adolecent or short adult, between a child height (43) and an adult height (60).

The thing is that the two different heights are not meant to represent different ages. They are two different scales. The 43cm dolls are 1/4 scale while the 60cm dolls are 1/3 scale. The concept of using them as "adults" and "children" is more an invention of doll owners than anything else.

[Hibiscus]

I am right out there as a fashion doll person, and I am boggled at the notion that these resin creatures that we lavish with wigs, clothes, and accessories are somehow NOT fashion dolls as well. Because they are customizable? Because they are strung? Many many doll artists are redoing Barbie and her family, and those Teen Trends dolls that dress my Yern and Liebchen? Fully strung.

The thing with dolls, and all figures, is that they are representing a person, not copying it. Figures are expressing the sculptor's esthetic, channeled through the engineering of the materials. So, we have the flat chested Dollstown gals, and the pneumatic Dollfie Dreams. Head sculpts with giant eyes and nonexistent noses, and sculpts that look like gargoyles. When did our dolls have to become "realistic"?

[Sand3]

The thing is that the two different heights are not meant to represent different ages. They are two different scales. The 43cm dolls are 1/4 scale while the 60cm dolls are 1/3 scale. The concept of using them as "adults" and "children" is more an invention of doll owners than anything else.
I understand the difference in scale, but if you treat 60cm as an adult height, then 43cm is actually quite proportional for a ten year old doll, and with many of the companies that make both sizes, the 43cm dolls only come in child bodies.

I am right out there as a fashion doll person, and I am boggled at the notion that these resin creatures that we lavish with wigs, clothes, and accessories are somehow NOT fashion dolls as well.

I have always referred to them as 'fashion dolls'. They're not play dolls or display dolls (since people tend to carry them around a lot), and so doesn't that make the fashion dolls? American fashion dolls have even started going towards the ABJD aesthetic now, they're shaped more like Barbie, but they're more on the 18" scale and ball-jointed resin these days. Also, the key selling point of ABJDs seems to be the customization of their looks and they certainly have a lot more fashions available than your average baby doll. From what I can see, there isn't anything about ABJDs that doesn't say 'fashion doll'.
I think perhaps people's issue with the aesthetic might be not comparing them to 'fashion doll' which is a category of collectible, but to Barbie and her ilk, the super-model doll. At this point, I have to note that this 'idealized' aesthetic that dolls follow is based upon a common conception of beauty. Companies want to make a doll that will sell, so they want to make a doll that the largest demographic is going to find attractive. The reason these dolls look like super models is the very same reason that those people are super models, their look is a generally agreed upon standard of 'beauty'. The marketing departments tell them that this is the shape that people want to see, and so this is the shape that they invest in making.

[Taco]

I am right out there as a fashion doll person, and I am boggled at the notion that these resin creatures that we lavish with wigs, clothes, and accessories are somehow NOT fashion dolls as well. Because they are customizable? Because they are strung? Many many doll artists are redoing Barbie and her family, and those Teen Trends dolls that dress my Yern and Liebchen? Fully strung.



I'm going to attempt to answer this in a somewhat coherent way. From my own perspective...while buying clothes and dressing up our dolls is great fun and part of the way many people play with their bjds, the fashions themselves are not the main function of bjds. Bjds are made to be easily customizable--it's not that fashion doll's can't be. There are many gorgeous pics of repaints in Haute Doll, however, most fashion dolls do not seem to be manufactured with that in mind.

Bjds are also marketed with the intent that they are very personal to
their owners beyond what one finds in most other collectables. While there is a strong secondary market, there is still a lot of attention paid to the attachement of the owner to the doll. They weren't meant to be just collectors pieces to be bought and sold. I'm not implying that people don't love or become attached to their fashion dolls (or that some bjd folks don't treat their bjds like collector pieces), but as an outsider looking in, fashion dolls do not seem to be put forward in that way.

There seems to be a lot of variation in fashion dolls, but most of the one's I've looked at look great in clothes, but not so hot undressed or dressed in skimpy outfits. The aesthetics of the sculpts *tend* (there are always exceptions) to be a bit different.

This does not mean that bjds are better or worse than fashion dolls. But, I know that I do see them as two different doll types. They may overlap, but they're still distinct enough from each other that I don't put them in the same category. Other people may compare fashion dolls to bjds and see them completely differently than I do, though...:drunk (drunken pirate because I couldn't help myself)

[Ridgeway]

But, I know that I do see them as two different doll types. They may overlap, but they're still distinct enough from each other that I don't put them in the same category. Other people may compare fashion dolls to bjds and see them completely differently than I do, though...:drunk (drunken pirate because I couldn't help myself)

That's what it comes down to, people's personal perceptions and experiences. Not once did I feel that my Fashion Editor Silkstone Barbie could take on a life of her own or that I could, in some animistic fashion, believe she housed a small part of my soul. I can believe that about about my Re-Che. I can dress him however I like just like most dolls but it's the feeling I get from my BJDs that makes the difference.

[Hibiscus]

Well of course not, Fashion Editor Barbie houses the soul of Carrie Donovan! <G>

But I do know what you mean, my Nabee is utterly my mini-me, and all the tier 1 princesses are aspects of my personality that I am deeply bonded to. Barbies? Not so much.

[eptrauma]

hm. Well, i don't like the SD16 but not because her unrealistic fashion doll proportions offend me or anything. Mostly it's just because there are many fashion dolls out there that share those proportions, and i feel like it's just not the reason i like ABJD's. I like fashion dolls allright, but i was drawn to ABJD's for their more unique sculpts, because they're different than what i had previously been exposed to. Even my SD13 is idealized, but she's curvy and has big breasts without being stick thin or super sexy.
I like the dolls where i can feel the fashion aesthetic influance without it being overtly sexual, i guess. My SD13 has elongated legs and arms like a fashion illustration, but a more realistically proportioned torso.
As for my Unoa, i relate to her body type a lot. I also have a flat as a board chest but curvy hips, legs, and booty, and i also have slightly large hands and feet. I think that's why my Unoa dresses the most like me.
As for the boys, i only have a soom boy. He's skinny, but he's got muscle definiton. I have had a couple friends that were shaped like him, and they were very thin but not unhealthy,
I'm not offended by idealization in dolls. I love fashion illustration (heck, i'm going to school for fashion design and everyone knows how extreme the idealization is in that industry) and i also love comic art and manga, where people of all genders are idealized. I recognize it as a valid art style, and it's what i tend to draw. But i'd definantly consider buying a chubbier doll too, but i think that a BJD that had a chubbier body type would look more like a vintage european BJD so maybe that's why you don't see it that often in ABJD's, because the idealization is something that defines the style of the doll.

[ravendolls]

Yeah, I think ultimately it is mostly a female doll problem... I've seen some ridiculous boy bodies, but with their clothes on, they pretty much all look the same... as long as they're in the same height-group at least.

I'm very picky about girl-bodies though. I really abhor the large-busted "mature/fashion doll" figures. I don't care at all for the SD16 girls, high heels are an abomination in my world, lol, and those silicone-stuffed-looking gravity-defying boobs look painful to this ex-nursing mother >wince<.

I love the SD10 girl body the best, though I recently ordered an SD13 girl FCS with the small bust. I can't say I'm enamored of Dollstown's new 15age girlbody... but oh well they have to follow the market and do new things I suppose. I just wish they hadn't discontinued the 13A body, which I admired for its healthy and strong-looking solidity.

Character plays a role for me too, when I'm given the option... I'd love a Dollstown Elysia head on a 13A girlbody to be a strong fierce Mongolian horsegirl... and Susie is only really appropriate on that downright bony 13B body.

Variety is a good thing. I just hate to see "everything" turning into Barbiedom.

Raven

[gayle]

I don't think there is any risk of "everything turning into Barbiedom".

Honestly, I think that those of us who rather like the Fashion doll style, are really in the minority in BJD land, so I think the trend towards more childlike and/or aesexual girls will always be a factor.

I agree with you though, I would hate to see the only girls availible be Fashion doll styled. Part of what makes BJD so enjoyable to me is how much diversity there are in the dolls, something for everyone.

[Ridgeway]

Well of course not, Fashion Editor Barbie houses the soul of Carrie Donovan! <G>

Yep, with Ms. Donovan in there, there's certainly no room for a piece of me!:lol

[Wotan]

A lot of the boy dolls have a problem of being more childish, while some of the girl dolls look like children's bodies, others actually have a mature body structure (and I don't just mean breasts), but there are only a very few male dolls that have an adult-looking body (and I don't just mean genitalia). Some of them do have more developed muscular shapes, but even then, you can't find nearly so many adult male chests as female, and most of them seem to have fairly weak shoulders as well. While Hound's do have more mature-looking features and faces than most male dolls, they're almost laughably skinny (seriously, I have a friend with proportions similar to a Hound doll and he looks ridiculously gangly). While a fair number of the female dolls in the world of BJDs can look natural and elegant outside of their clothes, Bishonen House is the only company I've found that seems to have put an effort into doing the same for male dolls (and again, I don't just mean genitalia).
Well said. Somebody was saying much the same thing to me. In particular, she was commenting on the amount of variety in female dolls as compared to male dolls: with female dolls, you've got variation in bust size, hip size, and more; with the boys, you get to choose how short/tall your skinny guy is. :p Yet we nit-pick the female dolls for all their options.


I also take some issue with the two levels of height and nothing in between. I want my dolls to look good together and be the appropriate sizes in relation to one and other, but there are only really two height levels, 43cm and 60cm. I want a doll that's around 50cm to be an adolecent or short adult, between a child height (43) and an adult height (60). I fortunately am a doll maker and already have plans in the works for a mid-sized doll, but I'm sure there must be other collectors who want that middle-size that are not sculptors. Really, I think a lot of the solution is in the small business doll-makers that have begun to spring up in the last couple years. I think Donn is probably the best known at this point because of the issue with a realistic (although, yes, idealized) adult male doll, but I know a few sculptors that have made female dolls with a more full-figured look and other shapes different from the standard Volks and Luts bodies. The DoA sculptor's thread has really come along in the last couple years so that now, among the amiture works, there are also some very talented artists cropping up and starting small-time doll businesses in similar sizes and aesthetics to the standard ones, but with more personality and variation.
Funny you mention this, too... I've been kicking around the idea of making both a short (51 cm) SD-sized doll, and a more full-figured girl body. The former seems like the more involved project, since you'd almost have to sculpt heads just for that body, as most SD-sized dolls look bobble-headed on their 57-60 cm bodies.

[Bliss]

The only BJD fashion doll body I accept is the Unoa second and Unoa zero. All other BJD fashion doll body attempts are not according to my taste.
I compare them to my own fashion doll vision. I like curvy legs, gorgeous hands, I love the hourglass figure even with Araki-san's new Zero's I wished them less slim and less busty. But his bodies are the most gorgeous fashion type of bodies. The kind off body models would die for. Nowadays fashion image says being skinny means beautifull..but that doesn't mean the model has a good figure. The models with the most gorgeous figure are those who have to watch their weight(the idea of food makes them fat XD). I don't like the Volks SD16 girl body because of the details of the muscles and bones and the big hands (most reall models have big feet and ugly hands so i geuss it's pwetty accurate).
But this is just my opnion about the girl fashion model bodies.
I don't even want to start about boys cause so far 60cm tall related I only adore the CP, Volks and DOT bodies. All the other bodies have something that makes me not ever wanna buy them =_= even iff they pose awesomely.

I do think a lot of BJD fans like the more realistic, artistic side of BJD. And with the artistic side imperfection can be seen/experienced as perfection. It all depends on people their taste. Either way I respect all dolls for ever being made they are an enrichment to the doll community.

[rattimoth]

hrmm.. interesting reading..

I was never into the so called 'fashion dolls' .. didn't even own ONE barbie as a kid.. seriously.

Can't comment on Ruby and Garnet.. never seen them.

I consider my abjd's to be my fashion dolls.. why?? because I dress them how I want.. I make or buy their clothes to suit MY taste.. it may not be 'fashion' but its me, and I have my own fashion :>

Personally, I can't see what all the hoo haa is about ... if a sculpt doesn't appeal to you.. don't buy it or yearn for it.. there are plenty of styles out there for everyone to be able to find one that suits their dreams.

For the record. I own dollshe boys, the new Fin Body (with a dollmore ray head), Souldoll MAN body (can't call that one a boy) Large busted Obitsu's as well as flat chested sharmins and CP luts boys, among others..

My most realistic female sculpt imho is my happy doll dorothy, and I love her for it. As for realistic male sculpts.. well, my husband weighs over 300lbs.. and he's the only man I have seen nekkid for quite a few years now.. still looking for a sculpt that resembles THAT body (not that I have any intention of buying it lol! its just a point I am making)

Seek peace

Carol

[lin]

I like all body types: tall (Dollshe), skinny (Flexi-body), short (CP), and curvy (Aoi-tuki). I like to buy heads that I love, then match them up with the bodies I think they need to be part of my little world. The only ones that bother me are some of the more exaggerated "bobble head" tinies. I think they're cute, but probably wouldn't buy one. I kind of think of my dolls as very extreme fashion and art dolls, and I like them much better than either one. I hope there continues to be a wide variety to choose from. I especially love that if you find a wonderful head but it comes on a body you hate, you can do something about it.

[Tonboko]

I think we focus more on the unrealistic proportions of the female dolls because we are trained to do so from a very young age.

Television bombards us with images of idealized people further idealized by computer editing. They are hocking everything from underwear to body wash to dating services to "preformance enhancing items". All these ads contain these idealized women wearing nearly nothing (sometimes just soap bubbles or a computer grafted ribbon).

Magazines are just as bad... I was flipping though an Oprah magazine while waiting at my chiropractor's. I only got half way though and counted four naked women in various adds and article pictures

Where are all the naked men? Granted I do not have cable tv, but what little I do catch at various places is filled with nearly naked women, but no nearly naked men that I can recall.

It's no wonder we are more drawn to the details of the female dolls, but we kinda don't think about the guy dolls proportions all that much.

[Rhian]

I think we focus more on the unrealistic proportions of the female dolls because we are trained to do so from a very young age.

Television bombards us with images of idealized people further idealized by computer editing. They are hocking everything from underwear to body wash to dating services to "preformance enhancing items". All these ads contain these idealized women wearing nearly nothing (sometimes just soap bubbles or a computer grafted ribbon).

Magazines are just as bad... I was flipping though an Oprah magazine while waiting at my chiropractor's. I only got half way though and counted four naked women in various adds and article pictures

Where are all the naked men? Granted I do not have cable tv, but what little I do catch at various places is filled with nearly naked women, but no nearly naked men that I can recall.

It's no wonder we are more drawn to the details of the female dolls, but we kinda don't think about the guy dolls proportions all that much.
You're not reading the right magazines, my dear! ;) There are plenty of semi-nude photos of men, but the very key difference is that you need to actively look for them. Barring the odd men's perfume commercial (or some of the excellent and rather daring Dolce & Gabbana ad campaigns), the majority of the semi-nude-male pictures are confined to specialist fashion magazines (and presumably also the magazines aimed at the bodybuilding men and the gay community, which I have not personally sampled). They are certainly there, but not precisely in plain sight.

I really think, though, that Barbie and Sindy and her like are more of an influence here than the general media. They, and the Ashton-Drake and Tonner dolls, are 'true' fashion dolls - that is to say, intended to be redressed in a multitude of fashions. I think we need to examine the ideas of their creators to discover why these dolls have these proportions, which I feel sure is what influenced Volks in their creation of the SD16, released for the American market in the spirit of the American fashion doll.

From here (http://collectdolls.about.com/library/weekly/aa101300b.htm):
Other things that Tonner wanted his fashion doll to have included a womanly body with a nipped-in waist (so she could wear layers of clothing in scale--without a nipped-in waist, a fashion doll would seem "bulky" and out of proportion once dressed. This is one of the reasons for Barbie's exaggerated proportions). Tonner also wanted a doll with her hands and feet in good proportion, and one with realistic hips. He also wanted the doll to have a model-like feel.
Tonner came from a fashion background, so he was familiar with the ideal proportions needed to best display clothing - and I find the detail about the nipped-in waist very interesting! It's a practical detail as well as an aesthetic one. The dolls are meant to model many different fashions... so it's important that those fashions look as good as they can. You cannot cinch in a doll's waist or sculpt their body with clothing as you can with a squishy human, so the sculpting must be already there, in the body of the doll.

Tonner's dolls are much more recent, so we should look back to Barbie, who I think was one of the first of that kind of doll. She was launched in 1959, and although I've not found much in my research, I would be willing to bet that at least part of the reason for her impossible proportions is the fashion of the time. We have the influence of the tiny waists of Dior's New Look - a relatively recent fashion look (although I believe that most women adopted a slightly less extreme version of it, as with many fashions). Tiny waists were de rigueur, and she would have been ideal for modelling the fashions of that era. These days, of course, a wasp waist is not portrayed as being so fashionable (and in 1997 Barbie's waist was widened (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/32312.stm) to reflect the modern trends in fashion, and presumably also the current idea of what is attractive in a woman).

So certainly, fashion dolls are going to reflect what is currently beautiful in the female body, but when looking at the SD16 - and any other ABJDs that are inspired by the American fashion doll proportions - I think it's important and interesting to look at the heritage of those proportions, and the practical reasons behind them.

[JennyNemesis]

Sounds like you're looking for a one-sentence justification, or some sort of blanket apology from all the women out here who like skinny unrealistic guys. ^^ You just want to know, where's the masculinist backlash? Why will nobody take these bitches to task for exploiting unrealistically-skinny men, while disliking barbie-body women? Will nobody speak up on behalf of the poor, downtrodden barbie-body?

You're free to like the Barbies & the Barbie-bodies as much as you want. Fine. However, most of the criticism I've read against Volks's Ruby and Garnet indicates that it's not their figures that's working against them. They're garishly made up, blandlooking, and fishlipped-- even putting them on an Aoi Tuki body wouldn't get them creds in this scene.

The reason I dislike female dolls isn't because I want to be built like them. I did my time with Barbies as a child. Nobody was making excellent-looking male dolls at that time, so I made do with Barbie & Steve Austin, but Barbie's outfits never jived with the action-hero life I wanted for her (outfit received at Christmas, destroyed by March). I have no use for ballgowns or feathered mules. So glamour dolls do nothing for me. Mostly, to me, they look like a burlesque of femininity-- for which I only have patience if it's a man in heels lip-synching "I Will Survive" on stage in front of me. Or, unless it's Dolly Parton in person. She's a walking parody, bless her tacky ol' bad self.

Want a tangent? Most of the criticism I read about Ruby & Garnet, interestingly, is followed closely by "but she'd make a great boy"! The only people I've talked to who'd even consider one of those SD16 dragsters were planning on making them into boys as soon as they got 'em out of the box. Seems like the Standard of Western Female Beauty, here, is widely considered to have the face of a man. Coincidence?

[Wotan]

Sounds like you're looking for a one-sentence justification, or some sort of blanket apology from all the women out here who like skinny unrealistic guys. ^^ You just want to know, where's the masculinist backlash? Why will nobody take these bitches to task for exploiting unrealistically-skinny men, while disliking barbie-body women? Will nobody speak up on behalf of the poor, downtrodden barbie-body?

Wow... I'll leave this alone, since I'm not at all clear about the tone. I hope it's tongue-in-cheek.


You're free to like the Barbies & the Barbie-bodies as much as you want. Fine. However, most of the criticism I've read against Volks's Ruby and Garnet indicates that it's not their figures that's working against them. They're garishly made up, blandlooking, and fishlipped-- even putting them on an Aoi Tuki body wouldn't get them creds in this scene.

And that's something that's come out in this thread that wasn't necessarily apparent in the main discussion of the dolls. Several people were :? about the frequent use of "fashion doll" as a criticism, and that's what this thread is about. "Fashion doll" on its own is rather ambiguous, no?


The reason I dislike female dolls isn't because I want to be built like them. I did my time with Barbies as a child. Nobody was making excellent-looking male dolls at that time, so I made do with Barbie & Steve Austin, but Barbie's outfits never jived with the action-hero life I wanted for her (outfit received at Christmas, destroyed by March). I have no use for ballgowns or feathered mules. So glamour dolls do nothing for me. Mostly, to me, they look like a burlesque of femininity-- for which I only have patience if it's a man in heels lip-synching "I Will Survive" on stage in front of me. Or, unless it's Dolly Parton in person. She's a walking parody, bless her tacky ol' bad self.

Hey, that's cool. It's a valid perspective and attitude to have about... well, everything. I don't think there needs to be acceptance of a certain look or style, such as anime vs. realistic or realistic vs. idealized. Nor do I think there needs to be a consensus about what "we" (the BJD community, or the users of this forum, or what have you) find to be good or bad, and this looked to be one area in which it was too easy to jump on the bandwagon and get swept up in popular opinion.


Want a tangent? Most of the criticism I read about Ruby & Garnet, interestingly, is followed closely by "but she'd make a great boy"! The only people I've talked to who'd even consider one of those SD16 dragsters were planning on making them into boys as soon as they got 'em out of the box. Seems like the Standard of Western Female Beauty, here, is widely considered to have the face of a man. Coincidence?
Seemingly ANY female doll release nowadays is followed closely by "but she'd make a great boy!" :p Lishe seems to be a popular crossgender sculpt right now, or the Senior Delf girls; the Olivia and Amelia heads are just as likely to be on a boy body as they are to be on their original body. The Standard of Eastern Male Beauty, as a counterpoint, seems to have the face of a woman. And there's no such thing as coincidence. ;)

[Se-chan]

Companies have not yet created a female body curvy enough for me to like yet.

[lin]

Companies have not yet created a female body curvy enough for me to like yet.

Do you like the Aoi-tuki body? Just curious.

http://www.aoi-tuki.com/0704body.html

[Merry]

Do you like the Aoi-tuki body? Just curious.

http://www.aoi-tuki.com/0704body.html

Wow, I like the overall shape of this doll! I don't care for the joint construction but I think I see what they were aiming for...sort of along the lines of the more stylized Japanese art dolls. Oddly, I actually like when the artist emphasizes joint construction in those. Hm...must be some weird mental hurdle I have that can't translate what I like in an art doll to what I like in a resin BJD. o___O;

[JennyNemesis]

Wow... I'll leave this alone, since I'm not at all clear about the tone. I hope it's tongue-in-cheek.

Yes, yes, 'twas! Sorry, I should've included a Bouncy Smiley Animated Thing to go with the tone. (I couldn't find a suitable one in this lineup.)

Whether it's the doll's figure, the sculpture-style, or the makeup-style, that bothers BJD people about glamour dolls... or all of the above... when the discomfort hits, it hits viscerally. Perhaps it stems from people having HAD a bellyful of Barbie in childhood already; or perhaps from never having been easy with everything Barbie represented, even as children. When I see this kind of upset, it is almost tinged with despair, i.e. I sense a feeling from them like "I thought I'd found a sanctuary where I could collect dolls and never have to bother with the glamour thing, and NOW look".

And of course, Miss Aoi Tuki Thunderbutt is still teh badaBOOM. ^^

[lin]

And of course, Miss Aoi Tuki Thunderbutt is still teh badaBOOM. ^^

I love her; had to have one. She doesn't make a great boy, either. LOL

[Wotan]

Yes, yes, 'twas! Sorry, I should've included a Bouncy Smiley Animated Thing to go with the tone. (I couldn't find a suitable one in this lineup.)

Whew... glad to know. Now I can get back to defending the big-boobied Barbie-esque girls out there ;) which reminds me of some dialogue from "King of the Hill":

BOBBY: How does this help the women with the big boobies?
PEGGY: (Bitter) They don't need any more help.


Whether it's the doll's figure, the sculpture-style, or the makeup-style, that bothers BJD people about glamour dolls... or all of the above... when the discomfort hits, it hits viscerally. Perhaps it stems from people having HAD a bellyful of Barbie in childhood already; or perhaps from never having been easy with everything Barbie represented, even as children. When I see this kind of upset, it is almost tinged with despair, i.e. I sense a feeling from them like "I thought I'd found a sanctuary where I could collect dolls and never have to bother with the glamour thing, and NOW look".

And of course, Miss Aoi Tuki Thunderbutt is still teh badaBOOM. ^^
All hail Thunderbutt Aoi Tuki! (bows down) I wouldn't mind seeing a body with the thickness a little more spread-out; but, if I'm going to get something like that, I'm gonna have to make it myself. I'm running out of back-burners for my projects. :damnit

Point well-taken about the pervasiveness of the glamour look, as well. I guess for many, the hobby was an escape from that world, while for others it's more of a gateway or an extension of it.

And, if there's ever any "taking the bitches to task" to be done, don't look at me. I'm a Gemini-- we're probably the bitchiest bitches of the Zodiac, and gender is no hindrance in my case. :XD

[JennyNemesis]

BOBBY: How does this help the women with the big boobies?
PEGGY: (Bitter) They don't need any more help.

http://controversialdoll.com/forums/images/smiles/yelrotflmao.gif You won't believe this, but I was utterly thinking of Peggy Hill as I typed that intro about "the poor downtrodden barbie". That episode!

Go, Peg! You and your badass size 13W feet!


All hail Thunderbutt Aoi Tuki! (bows down) I wouldn't mind seeing a body with the thickness a little more spread-out; but, if I'm going to get something like that, I'm gonna have to make it myself.

Oh wow, I didn't actually look at that new Aoi Tuki picture-- she must be the recent edition, because she seems a bit slimmer? The one I was thinking about is Edition #1, who has even MORE Rollin' Thunder going on.
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108989

Try and pick her out of that lineup. Mm, tough call. ^^ Goddamn!..., I mean... the creases! Rollin', rollin', rollin', rawhiiiiide! She is just so far out. Yet such a human silhouette. Next to her, SD16 Olivia looks like a starveling freak who's shaped all wrong & missing a rib.


Wait, did someone already post this link too? I don't know if this artist has ever finished that plus-sized doll she was sculpting herself: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104206
...but it shows that SOME folks are moving towards making new body types, with their own hands. Wotan, we'll all be eager to see that uber-zaftig 51cm dream-girl of yours, too, as soon as you around to making her.

[Osaka]

Wotan, we'll all be eager to see that uber-zaftig 51cm dream-girl of yours, too, as soon as you around to making her.

Indeed! Put the little metal men away and start sculpting Little Miss Short and Curvy! :mad I know you've got the skillz!!

*goes back into hiding!*

[NightWatch]

Addressing the issue of why we don't seem to criticize male dolls as much as female dolls when it comes to unrealistic proportions...I think one of the main reasons is that most male dolls aren't so completely stylized that it's painfully obvious that they're unrealistic. I look at my naked CP and the one very obviously unmanly thing about him (other than his face), are the curvy legs. Women wish they had legs like his. But when our male dolls are dressed up, it isn't very obviously unrealistic. If you discount the head to body proportion (which for most dolls, females and males alike, are screwed up), they look pretty alright. Average male shaped. It's not like we can look at a male doll and say, "Wow, no real human male has chests that flat!" or "Oooohhh, males don't usually have penises that small!" Basically, what I'm saying is that when it comes to proportions, the female dolls are usually more obviously exaggerated compared to the males.

The only really differently shaped male dolls that is obvious even when clothed are Dollshes (and possibly Dollmore model boys), and they take a lot of criticism for being exceptionally scrawny.

As for BJDs being compared to fashion dolls...well, BJD have for a very long time been different from fashion dolls aesthetic-wise. When BJDs start showing possible similarities to fashion dolls, there will naturally be collectors that dislike the similarities. How is that surprising? If fashion dolls started looking more like...Aoi Tuki's for example, I'm pretty sure the fashion doll collectors will react almost the same. Personally, I'm not fond of the new SD16 girls because I don't like their faces. A bit too haughty for my preference. Having no experience with fashion dolls, I'm curious to know if that is what fashion dolls usually look like? Haughty? Or distant?

[lin]

[url]
Oh wow, I didn't actually look at that new Aoi Tuki picture-- she must be the recent edition, because she seems a bit slimmer? The one I was thinking about is Edition #1, who has even MORE Rollin' Thunder going on under her skirt.
[url]http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108989[/url


It is the same body in both photos; it's just better photographed on the Aoi-tuki website. Her waist is slim (fits SD skirt waistbands), but her hips and legs are heavier than most dolls. I know several real women whose bodies are like that.

[nakitama]

I was gonna say something intelligent, and then you just hadta post the Aoi Tuki body! That body makes me unintelligible every time. :p I just wanna reach through the screen and jiggle the hell outta those thighs :XD

I luv em chunky, yes'm, I do. :shifty

[junoboy]

I appreciate the variations in doll bodies and shapes.. I for one love the SD 16 body.. those calf muscles on her high heeled legs are gorgeous.. I think what is interesting is her rather broad shoulders and small hips.. I guess kinda like Rachel Welsh body. She apparently had no hips!

Now, I can't wait to see more photos of the Unoa Zero in comparison to the SD 16 girls..

[blackbox]

Ok I have not read ALL the posts in the is thread... but I am curious as to how the "unrealistic" bodies are not accepted by some but the "unrealistic" heads ARE accepted. The heads on most dolls are WAY out of proportion as the their circumference and shape and all the facial features mostly the eye are WAY out of proportion to any "real" people heads.

At least the SD16 dolls have the heads more in proportion to their body size.

As I see it they are dolls there is nothing "realistic" about any of them. JMO not meant to create a debate.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

The heads on most dolls are WAY out of proportion as the their circumference and shape and all the facial features mostly the eye are WAY out of proportion to any "real" people heads.

See I like the Lati boys and Narae and the little bambicronies precisely because their proportions are more "real". Everyone complains about the Latis being pin heads but they are more correct than a big volks or customhouse melon head ;)

[NightWatch]

Ok I have not read ALL the posts in the is thread... but I am curious as to how the "unrealistic" bodies are not accepted by some but the "unrealistic" heads ARE accepted. The heads on most dolls are WAY out of proportion as the their circumference and shape and all the facial features mostly the eye are WAY out of proportion to any "real" people heads.


I think it's nothing to do with 'accepted' or not. It's just a matter of preference. You'll see people complaining about overly stylized heads while others complaining about realistic 'pinheads'. It all depends on what you like.

While the original post addresses the fact that people complain about SD16's unrealistic female body, the thing is people complain about Dollshe's unrealistic male body as well and CP's senior delf buff yet skinny body and unrealistic female-to-male-converted bodies too. Perhaps Volks has been established longer so people pay more attention when there are complaints about their bodies. Or, the complaints are louder because it's change after such a long while.

[harlowe]

See I like the Lati boys and Narae and the little bambicronies precisely because their proportions are more "real". Everyone complains about the Latis being pin heads but they are more correct than a big volks or customhouse melon head ;)

I agree. That's why I don't get into the CP or Volks mini's. Their SD's are cool (but I don't collect those) they are at least more proportional than the MSD's.

I don't think Lati's have pinheads at all. It's nice to see some normal body symmetry.

[Taco]

See I like the Lati boys and Narae and the little bambicronies precisely because their proportions are more "real". Everyone complains about the Latis being pin heads but they are more correct than a big volks or customhouse melon head ;)

It's all about personal preference. I think the Lati Reds are gorgeous, but I wouldn't get one for one of my characters, because his proportions (while more realistic), would make him look out of proportion to the other guys in the story line.

I think my big thing is that the head look right with the body sculpt it's on. Little head, big head, whatever as long as it doesn't look awkward with the body.

[OddEthics]

I like both realistic and unrealistic dolls but I tend to lean towards unrealistic. It's really all opinionated as in any hobby. I'm not a big fan of the senior delf bodies but I do like the delf mature. I like all the different type of bodies out there as you have a lot to choose from for a character or a specific look.

[junoboy]

See I like the Lati boys and Narae and the little bambicronies precisely because their proportions are more "real". Everyone complains about the Latis being pin heads but they are more correct than a big volks or customhouse melon head ;)

MELON HEADS.. that's a new one on me... very funny gonna use that one

[Dark Chocolat]

See I like the Lati boys and Narae and the little bambicronies precisely because their proportions are more "real". Everyone complains about the Latis being pin heads but they are more correct than a big volks or customhouse melon head ;)

Amen. It wasn't until the Lati Redline was introduced that I even thought about owning a doll. While I had thought they were pretty and what not, they always looked so unproportionate. It would always amuse me to have my Lati M next to a CP Yder(who has a small head for CP) and just gawk at the difference. I've since spent a lot of time looking around for dolls that seem more in proportion to me for my 'crew'. I like anime style... when it's in anime or art. I don't like it so much when I'm trying to make physical representations of characters that are supposed to be real people.

And on the main topic. I rather like the SD16 girls. I have nothing against fashion doll versus BJD or whatever. It's a different aethstetic and those who like it will like it.

However, I agree with the female bodies having more harsh feeling put toward them than the male bodies. I have seen many female bodies that I like, but to count there are only two male bodies that I like. Most of them all seem to overly muscled (Senior Delf), unrealistically thin(Dollshe), or look blocky (Volks). That's my own opinion though.

[jayyne]

While I wouldn't want my girl dolls to have Barbie-type proportions, I'll also say I don't want them to have bodies shaped like my own. I don't know that I would enjoy looking at a plump doll as much as I admire the beautiful shapes that they are now.
As for the male dolls having unrealistic proportions...I think that the thinner BJD boys are kind of refreshing when you compare them to the American fashion doll and action figure sculpts out now. My friend and I bought a Jack Sparrow doll for the costume, and his chest was so huge it was ridiculous. I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but I remember watching a show that compared a Luke Skywalker figurine from the 70's with one produced recently. The new figure looked like he was on steroids.

[JennyNemesis]

At the risk of being too flippant, or too pat... perhaps the reason people accept unrealistic male bodies more easily than they'll accept unrealistic female bodies in this scene... maybe it's because such a high percentage of dollfolks are female, and you just can't squeeze quite as much sympathy for downtrodden males OR downtrodden barbies from them. ^^ "Oh noes, somebody's judging a male body unfairly? Go watch TV for ten minutes, then come back and cry me a river!" ("Who will help the ladies with the big boobies?" still makes me laugh uncontrollably if I say it out loud, esp. when imitating Bobby Hill's accent.)

Aside from that, I think NightWatch is probably the rightest yet, about the male doll bodies generally being less "obviously exaggerated" and distorted than the females. *sigh* No, Yukinojo, your action-man body is an exception, you know we're not talking about you here. ^^


The Giant Bobblehead Syndrome-- in dolls and cartoons and art and toys and everything-- stems from somebody's long-ago scientific discovery that the combo of large head + small body gives off a sense of youth (and/or femininity, depending on where you read). It also induces a sense of sympathy in the viewer. Same with the feature-placement on the childlike & more anime-like heads: Large eyes, small nose, giant forehead, & the features all placed tightly together at the bottom of the face. Think back to Tweety Bird, even; the artist had to make you want to root for him all the time, even though he was always a bigger asshole in battle than Sylvester was. :P

The newer, 'realistically' smaller heads that are coming under such critical fire as being pinheads-- and which are also simultaneously being lauded as the next step towards perfection-- give a doll a more adult proportion. A little closer to Barbie than the traditional anime-style face some people expect from BJDs. A proportional head takes away that "youth & sympathy" feeling, which is the very reason that some people get into dolls in the first place. I personally don't care for giant babyheads or too much button-eyed sweetness, which gets cloying fast. But so many others love dolls for that very reason, because they like a doll to be an innocent piece of childhood that makes you want to cuddle it. Everyone needs dolls to be different things to them.

[PS: I cannot help but chuckle about this phenomenon: In the past 3 pages, people have variously called Volks boy bodies "thick", "bony", "slim", "blocky", and "short". Well! *snerk* Such disagreement-- all those polarized adjectives, for one same body! See how funny perception can be?]

[fitz]

I am just wishing for smaller breasts, that look like they arent in underwear. For male dolls- I just think the legs look really skinny. And everyones hands and feet seem to small. But I still like them. They are both idealized- I just think it is more noticed in female dolls since women have more "body issues"

[Wotan]

While I wouldn't want my girl dolls to have Barbie-type proportions, I'll also say I don't want them to have bodies shaped like my own. I don't know that I would enjoy looking at a plump doll as much as I admire the beautiful shapes that they are now.

I think that's one of the strange areas of this whole area of perception. What exactly do we want the female doll to look like? Clearly, we don't want the oversexualized female form (or certain permutations of it, or not to certain excesses-- after all, the Unoa girls seem to be well-received, voluptuous curves and all), but we don't necessarily want a "real" woman. Again, the female image ball of wax-- how we perceive it, how we (or, more accurately, women) respond to it-- casts quite a shadow over things.

At the risk of being too flippant, or too pat... perhaps the reason people accept unrealistic male bodies more easily than they'll accept unrealistic female bodies in this scene... maybe it's because such a high percentage of dollfolks are female, and you just can't squeeze quite as much sympathy for downtrodden males OR downtrodden barbies from them. ^^ "Oh noes, somebody's judging a male body unfairly? Go watch TV for ten minutes, then come back and cry me a river!" ("Who will help the ladies with the big boobies?" still makes me laugh uncontrollably if I say it out loud, esp. when imitating Bobby Hill's accent.)

I think this is certainly part of my expectation on the subject, but I didn't want to pigeonhole everyone. After all, it's that kind of generalizing that's created most of this problem in the first place.

And I think anything said in Bobby Hill's accent is automatically funnier. :p


Aside from that, I think NightWatch is probably the rightest yet, about the male doll bodies generally being less "obviously exaggerated" and distorted than the females. *sigh* No, Yukinojo, your action-man body is an exception, you know we're not talking about you here. ^^

Yukinojo was too busy kissing his biceps to notice.


The Giant Bobblehead Syndrome-- in dolls and cartoons and art and toys and everything-- stems from somebody's long-ago scientific discovery that the combo of large head + small body gives off a sense of youth (and/or femininity, depending on where you read). It also induces a sense of sympathy in the viewer. Same with the feature-placement on the childlike & more anime-like heads: Large eyes, small nose, giant forehead, & the features all placed tightly together at the bottom of the face. Think back to Tweety Bird, even; the artist had to make you want to root for him all the time, even though he was always a bigger asshole in battle than Sylvester was. :P

The newer, 'realistically' smaller heads that are coming under such critical fire as being pinheads-- and which are also simultaneously being lauded as the next step towards perfection-- give a doll a more adult proportion. A little closer to Barbie than the traditional anime-style face some people expect from BJDs. A proportional head takes away that "youth & sympathy" feeling, which is the very reason that some people get into dolls in the first place. I personally don't care for giant babyheads or too much button-eyed sweetness, which gets cloying fast. But so many others love dolls for that very reason, because they like a doll to be an innocent piece of childhood that makes you want to cuddle it. Everyone needs dolls to be different things to them.

I think another thing in play here is a phenonemon referred to as the "Uncanny Valley" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley). We may be in the "looks just enough like us to creep us out" phase of dolls.


[PS: I cannot help but chuckle about this phenomenon: In the past 3 pages, people have variously called Volks boy bodies "thick", "bony", "slim", "blocky", and "short". Well! *snerk* Such disagreement-- all those polarized adjectives, for one same body! See how funny perception can be?]
Or the Volks sculptors are so masterful that it IS all of those things at the same time. :? Good luck finding a headsculpt to reflect all of those attributes!

I am just wishing for smaller breasts, that look like they arent in underwear. For male dolls- I just think the legs look really skinny. And everyones hands and feet seem to small. But I still like them. They are both idealized- I just think it is more noticed in female dolls since women have more "body issues"
Agreed; however, I'm coming around somewhat to the idea that some doll characteristics have to be exaggerated to make them appear right when clothed-- pushed-up breasts because resin can't be lifted and separated, and slender legs because small-scale clothes would cause an overly-bulky look.

[hotelobby]

Reading through this thread has enriched me both in history and in perception.

To start off my post I can really see how tastes and trends have changed from way back and how people have become very much postmoder in the sense that people refuse to be typecasted as block 1, block 2 and seek to be different or somewhat rebellious maybe?

The so called unrealistic proportions were a reflection of an era's ideal of beauty and proportion. Why so I'll never know as I never lived that time but seeing how it's persisted this long that it's become a topic of contention fascinates me. 8D

In my opinion the doll market is full of choices. Realistic and non realistic bodies and head sculpts are in available and perhaps in the works! I own a SD10 boy body and it amuses me how we have so much similarities body wise. xD Small shoulders, thunder butt, chunky thighs and skinny calves. I'm like... Ooh kiddo, we can so relate when we get clothes you know that? xD
And no that was not why I got him in the first place. I was just shocked when I opened the box and I saw his proportions. He was... Eeh. Little girl and boy at the same time. Aaah uncircumcised penis! YOU ARE A BABY! -cuddles immediately-

I wish I knew better about fashion dolls as my poor country's exposure to them was only through Barbie. xD With what I know, Barbie despite her ridiculous proportions isn't a very static figure. We've seen her change and look different under different eras. It makes me go OOH when I see her with different head sculpts but still get called Barbie nonetheless.

The bodies of these dolls are just reflections of the creator's dreams for us to live by. Just so happens we have emotionally charged and socially formed ideas that makes us think so upon their subject. :3

I would enjoy greater variety though. Who doesn't? It invites newer ideas and even newer people into the hobby given they can afford. ^^;

We live in different lifeworlds, ladies and gents. In my lifeworld, our men and women are really on the slender side. It's how genetically built and racially made we are. So for me it's quite easy for me to accept the skinny/slender/slightly meaty or voluptuous look that some BJDs have. Our women are usually bottom heavy or have large hips or so. Not much on breasts or if they do, it's just right. But what I enjoy about both cases is that they have a sense of balance about them nonetheless.
For fun I measure several BJDs' three sizes: chest, waist and hips and usually I find their chest and hips alike then their waist - 10 of their chest/hips measurement which I find good enough a proportion.

Frankly when I look at BJD ladies' breasts I don't see C cups or so. I don't think they're large enough to be warranted large. xD I sometimes think they're just kind of normal but the way they stay up perky can be mildly disturbing but it's done so since they're not squishy and won't need brassieres like humans do :3

As for men...Long legs, long torsos and long arms. I see them everyday. :3
It's just that their "head sculpts" aren't as defined or pretty as them BJDs but really...

Despite how we say it's not real! Maybe it's just because it doesn't exist in YOUR lifeworld.

GODS. WHY AM I USING HABERMASIAN TERMS?!

*keyboard slam*

[Kahli]

I have both, fashion dolls and bjds
I still have some remaining Tonners and Genes and Kishes (oh my). I'll probably keep those as long as any other dolls I have.
But when I moved to mostly-bjds, I find that I don't like the fashion doll style as much for them. I don't like Sybs or Finnnnn or most of the other fashion-body type bjds. Just a preference.

I have my fashion dolls- and I have my bjds (40 of them right now) and they are like corn and peas at my house -- that means I never mix the two- nor do I mix any of them with smooshed potatoes. :p

vicki

[bunnyscotch]

I see the dolls' bodies as a work of art and there aren't many paintings that are completely accurate since so many things are exaggerated or minimized. I think that most collectors are aware that there is no way that anyone they know (let alone themselves) are EVER going to be able to achieve "perfection" when it comes to body-type. So I enjoy the "un-natural" proportions of the dolls.

[Voodoo]

I'm not all that bothered by the bodies, however although I really like the new Dollmore model girl I don't think I'd buy her because the body is sooo thin (and tall, and doesn't really suit her girly face).

I also tend to find many girl doll sculpts are bland, barbie-ish and lacking in character. I wish companies would be more adventurous with the girl sculpts. Although I've seen many wonderful Lishes I ended up selling mine because I just couldn't get her to work for me. I just kept seeing her as a giant Barbie.

[mclamm7]

I think it is really interesting how vicious the attacks against some dolls are. People need to chill out without becoming so aggressive/defensive. If it doesn't float your boat there is no need to be hateful. Calling Ruby or Garnet "Drag Queens" as an insult shows a real lack of social skills and maturity.

Both dolls are beautiful sculpts. I especially love Ruby as I think she reflects an "ethnic" beauty that it so rare in ABJD. I grew up on an Indian Reservation and she could be any of the girls I went to school with. She has strong features with Native American cheekbones and very full lips. There are many people in this world who possess such features and they do not resemble men dressed as women as a parity of femininity. The Jewels do have pretty extreme make-up (I personally would have gone a different direction with their make up as their sculpts are very strong). I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone is entitled to their opinion but there is a big difference between stating it constructivly and thoughtfully and just being hateful and mean because you think it is funny to degregate other people or make them feel bad about their tastes in art or fashion.

Now back on topic. I think the precise reason there is no critic of male doll's unrealistic proportions is that there are more women in this hobby than men and they are not threatened by an unrealistic male ideal but feel very differently when presented with an unrealistic female ideal. I do not know many tall thin guys with perfect chiseled six pack abs, well muscled legs and arms, square jaw, large wide spaced eye, full lips, arched brows and perfect skin. In fact, I cannot think of one living male I have ever met that meets every single criteria! Those that I know who fit half that criteria are working as professional models. I am not asking anyone to "cry a river" but an acknowledgment would be a step in the right direction.

There are men in this hobby too and just like the women they are not perfect but do not feel compelled to bitch about the gangly, dog-lipped, Ikabod Crane-esque male ideal so often "squeeed" over by drooling females. Excuse the rant but after reading some of these posts I thought a rant may be in order.

[LauraJ]

I think the part of the fashion doll criticism that does make me furrow my brows is the "us versus them" mentality that it seems to express: if you have a BJD, throw those Barbies and Tonners away; if you want to stick with your fashion dolls, you're not ready to "step up" to the world of strung dolls.

I can associate with this attitude, sometimes that is the feeling I get. I have the random Barbie, 3 Tonners, several sizes of 27cm Obitsu (wanna talk about unrealistic?) and many Cy Girls hanging around my house.

As far as body shapes go. I love the Unoa sculpts as far as body shapes go. They seem to promote a sensuality that not every girl can have. The latest two Volks dolls were, to me, a breath of fresh air from a company who mainly seemed to be producing children or anime characters. That is my bias though, I wish my dolls to be more mature or adult rather than child-like.

I very much wish that the doll companies would consider posting clear photos of the unpainted heads as well as front, back and sides of the nude bodies. I will study sculpts for awhile before I pick a doll. I like to see more than just the outfit they'd like to sell you with the doll.

[Nineivre]

both bjds and fashion dolls are stylized one way or another. if people wanted a really real doll they should consider getting a kid :/

i wonder who in this bjd community actually aspires to a doll figure?

[verilens]

So on page 3 of this thread someone mentioned the way that many ABJD hobbyists tend to shy away from, or even turn their noses up at, the term "fashion doll." This is a little bit OT for the original topic, but I think that's because "fashion doll" is a western, stereotyped term that usually refers to dolls produced in the west and marketed to people with western doll ideals.

Since ABJDs are primarily produced in Asia with Asian aesthetic ideals...they are "fashion dolls," but they're definitely in a league of their own from dolls with limited poseability whose main function is to be displayed in a case or on a shelf (which I have absolutely nothing against.)

So I think the main reason people don't like ABJDs to be lumped in with "fashion dolls" is because of those major differences, and the much larger amount of owner interaction that occurs with an ABJD than with a fashion doll (especially if you aren't a customizer.) The term really does conjure up its own imagery...so when explaining ABJDs to someone outside of the hobby, if they asked "You mean like a fashion doll?" most people would probably say "no," just to avoid confusion!

I definitely do detect hints of derision towards fashion dolls in the ABJD community, and I don't really understand why...all dolls are related!

[Agnes]

"Fashion doll" is frequently used in the BJD hobby as a generic term for a certain look. It just so happens that some BJDs start crossing over into that area. Then I might say something like, "that looks too fashion doll for me", meaning it's similar to that look, not that it's somehow inferior and "fashion doll" means "ugly". A lot of BJD owners don't have any interest in fashion dolls. It feels like the lack of interest and being turned off by the look is misinterpreted as hostility. It's just a personal taste.

[Aruri]

I guess another .02 can be put in....

my biggest problem with fashion styled dolls it their face not their bodies at all. it's the expressions. Garnet and Ruby both have very invariable faces... maybe it's just how people are coosing to paint them/leave their original faces... but I havn't seen a single one who looks like she has any expressin at all other than sheer boredom...

it's like instead of modeling the doll with a feeling or specific personality in mind, they just took a random high fashion photo and sculpted it to look like it.... so the expression is very stark or stationary......

[laeticia]

I actually find the over-muscled male dolls a bit unrealistic and idealized and I'm not crazy about them. I think they look nice, but I don't want a doll in the house that looks like it goes to the gym more than I do. ...

[Iikaya]

I'm not sure if this is because I did intensive figurative drawing studio work or what, but yes, I definitely notice that both female AND male sculpts have been exaggerated and/or idealized and I do feel bothered by it.

The girls get nipped in the waist by the hourglass bug and their breasts get implants and uplifts and the boys get muscles everywhere (the more recent sculpts anyways... Dollshe's boys are definitely on the skinny side all around) and the long and oftentimes skinny legs (and sometimes arms) that remind me of Jack Skellington.

I think, though, that a possible reason that the girl dolls get more criticism is because where men can actually GET really buff bodies by working out, it is literally nearly IMPOSSIBLE for women to get the hourglass figure especially with the small hips and big breasts without having perfect genetics.

Where the male sculpts (let's not look at the legs and overly tall bodies at the moment) are more idealized, the female sculpts are more exaggerated and when you look at fashion dolls, the exaggeration is dangerously so.

Somehow, I think it's easier for people to realize 'Yeah, I won't be getting legs like that Soom Sabik over there or that Hound' versus 'Yeah, I won't be getting a figure like that Lishe over there or that Barbie'.

In terms of psychology, girls seem to be more prone to body image issues and so the issue with exaggerated proportions with dolls is taken more seriously, I think.

If we look outside of dolls, we can see that this shows itself in real life, too.

More recently in Europe, a major fashion show has put a ban on the size 0 models because size 0 is too unrealistic - according to them - and they don't want to contribute to young girls' self image problems.

Additionally, when I was still working with Toys R Us, Mattel was being sued because of this exact issue with doll proportions. Only Barbie and friends, though, and not including Ken! This is part of the reason the newer dolls have slightly improved proportions.

For me in regards to BJDs and my own personal preferences, I definitely prefer(red) the more realistic proportions and here's my reactions to some dolls in regards to proportions and whatnot.

My first resin boy to come home was Elfdoll's Special Red. He wasn't as tall as the other 60 boys, but that was just fine with me because he was actually more in proportion that way! He was also a bit chunkier and that was fine by me too! He didn't look like he was malnourished which was a good thing!

I've loved the CP molds ever since Shiwoo came out, but the ultra smooth ultra slim bodies on the boys bothered me a bit. On the girl bodies, the squashed together breasts bugged me.

I've loved Dollshe's Hound sculpt - his face is just beautiful - but his body! The skinniness and ultra long limbs made me shy away from bringing one home.

I like Domuya's Flexi body for both the girls and boys, and I was loving the proportions on the Flexi Perennial until I came to the looooong legs! This is the same with Iplehouse and the same with Elfdoll's new taller boy body.

I loved Elfdoll's more realistic sculpts and was hoping to bring home a Lydia with the small bust and was/am disappointed to find that the new bodies are less natural looking and more idealized (to me).

So... yeah.

I definitely notice the disparities in proportions with both the girls and boys and it's affected me and whom I have and have not brought home.

I still have mad love for a lot of these sculpts that I've singled out off the top of my head, but... yeah.

[Kogepan]

I'm so glad I looked at this thread. I agree with the OP completely. Somewhat related - I'm an avid yaoi fangirl, and it always annoys me that there's this double standard when it comes to the fans' attitudes about objectification of men in yaoi versus objectification of women in smutty/pornographic heterosexual manga. :P Porn is porn, fantasy is fantasy, and in this case - dolls are dolls.

I don't want a realistic doll. I don't think doll artists have any obligation to portray realistic people unless they want to. I want a pretty doll - a sort of pretty that isn't beholden to reality.

That said, I don't like the SD16 girls because I don't find them pretty. That's all. I don't think they're insulting to women somehow, it's just not my ideal. I like a very girlish, delicate figure - which just as idealized/unrealistic in its way. :)

On the other hand - I actually think the main strike against SD16 girls is not their body but their head sculpts, which I feel look fashion doll-like and manly. None of that delicate girlishness I like so much from the asian bjd aesthetic, no subtlety. And because the head is still proportionally rather large to the body, yet both head and body are more western/fashion doll in aesthetic - I get the effect of an out-of-proportion fashion doll? Meh. Again, these are all aesthetic complaints and matters of taste, nothing to do with issues of body image.

[shadowtakatori]

I think at least in BJDs there seems to be equal "idealization". I really wish that there were more body varity, but maybe a lot of it has to do with balance and resin stability too.

[flpinkboxsociety]

Once upon a time I had a huge collection of Barbies and Genes until I found they had lost my interest. I was still collecting but I no longer enjoyed the actual dolls. Once I saw BJDs I was fascinated by dolls again, mostly for everything that was different about them. I sold my entire collection of fashion dolls to get my Bermann.
.

I am with you in that i have/had a good number of other dolls from what would be the fashion doll genre i guess.

I dont consider my resin kidz in the fashion doll catagory, but in a way - and i hope i dont get zapped for this- a huge step up for dolls and fashion. These dolls can pivot and move, and they look great in fashion. As a lover of fabric and textiles, i love that my kidz can wear the more intricate prints and or styles. If that makes them a fashion doll in any way, i am ok with that. I got introduced to these dolls via volks at IFDC, which is a fashion doll convention, and i havent looked back, now 4 years later totally enamored with their versatility and beauty. I am so thankful to have found them.

as for the proportion issue, i havent found too many resin cuties i havent liked, because i think i find beauty in their diversity. realistic, prob not, but i cant say that people of any era ever loved the natural human form... corsetting anyone? lol.
hope i havent rambled to much! thanks so much for a pretty interesting thread. i am enjoying the ideas expressed immensly.

to the comment quoted:
"Fashion doll" is frequently used in the BJD hobby as a generic term for a certain look. It just so happens that some BJDs start crossing over into that area. Then I might say something like, "that looks too fashion doll for me", meaning it's similar to that look, not that it's somehow inferior and "fashion doll" means "ugly". A lot of BJD owners don't have any interest in fashion dolls. It feels like the lack of interest and being turned off by the look is misinterpreted as hostility. It's just a personal taste.

thank you so much for explaining this. I have wondered many times if my having fashion dolls ie barbie, fashion royalty, etc etc. would be considered odd by the majority of collectors, and thread such as this always made me feel as tho those dolls were not quite seen in a positive light. now i understand it is a descriptive term, not so much a dislike.

Hope to read more of this thread, i think it is god to see so many perspectives!

[kuroda emi]

I like curvy bodies, but I think that the SD16 just looks a bit too fake for me. I dont think a woman would have that much muscle definition if she was that skinny. But I personally like the U-noss the best, which is very curvatious and womanly. Her thighs are possibly my favorite part, because I dont really like stick legs at all.

With male dolls, like the SD17, I think that they are a bit too muscular, They remind me of body builders. I think that the legs are a bit too long also. My favorite body is probably the SD13 it just seems to be more realistic to me.

[TrekkieGrrrl]

I had to look up the two Volks dolls being mentioned here, and yeah I can see why some people think "fashion Doll" when they see them. I also think I've pinpointed WHAT makes that difference. It's not so much the body shape as the head shape and head size.

I looked at some doll comparison pics and noticed (as many no doubt before me) that most "typical" ABJDs have heads that are more or less pearshaped (an upside-down pear, that is) with wide scalps and narrow chins, whereas the the ABJDs that seem "Fashion Doll" to me are more "0" shaped in their heads. Also the "fashion dolls" have generally smaller eyes, still large but smaller than a lot of the "conventional" abjds - and I think that why the seem somehow "off" when you've gotten used to the typical ABJD aestetics.

I'm not going into what's right or wrong or better or anything, that is after all a personal preference. I just notice that the "fashion type" often look somehow "wrong" next to a more traditional abjd.

BTW IMO a very nice male body is the one you'll find on the 70 cm DollZone guys. It's muscular but not too bulky :) I'm personally in LOVE with the lanky DollShe body. *because* it's so skinny and lanky, it would fit my character so perfectly. He's thin and tall and SCRAWNY!

But alas DollShe stopped their production just as I was entereing this hobby, so...

[laeticia]

I am a female collector and I *do* actually find the overly buff male bjd bodies irritating. (I don't object to other people liking them, but they're not my preference.) I fell in love with the Unidoll Jace head sculpt, but to me he looks like a quiet, introspective academic placed on a beefcake body that I don't care for. I think part of it for me is that by my mid-30s I've come to appreciate the diversity of human appearances and now I find variation (which some might term imperfection) interesting and appealing and so I don't care so much for dolls that adhere to a popular norm of beauty that, through over exposure, seems somewhat bland. (This all applies to facial sculpts too, not just bodies. What sold me on the Jace sculpt was his giant Roman nose.)

[Aussie grrrl]

I dont find the buff male bodies (sd16 / 17) offencive or iritating at all, but they cetainly are not my cup of tea!
I do however like the cp/luts bodies on both delf and minifee. They are toned without being buff and I think a bit more realistic to a young fit asian male (think bruce lee mmmm....)
Same argument as always comes up for the female bodies, who would really want to buy a male doll with love handles and a bit of a belly? And it all comes down to marketing and sales, these people are running a business after all.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

... who would really want to buy a male doll with love handles and a bit of a belly?

*waves hand* me!

[Wotan]

*waves hand* me!
And Osaka will be the next person in line to put in her pre-order. :D

Frankly, I'd like some variety in girl sculpts. I have no problem with the current types of sculpts, but it does sometimes feel a bit like shopping for a girl is a matter of answering, "So, how tall do you want your slender girl with a good set of boobs?" (The answer, BTW, is "Very!") Some day I'd like to see a short girl body with a bit more "meat on the bone", and I'd like to see a girl a bit on the brawny side (Serena Williams FTW!)

I think it'll happen some day; just look at how the variety in head molds has increased in the past year or two. The bodies will catch up.

[Brightfires]

And Osaka will be the next person in line to put in her pre-order. :D

Frankly, I'd like some variety in girl sculpts. I have no problem with the current types of sculpts, but it does sometimes feel a bit like shopping for a girl is a matter of answering, "So, how tall do you want your slender girl with a good set of boobs?" (The answer, BTW, is "Very!") Some day I'd like to see a short girl body with a bit more "meat on the bone", and I'd like to see a girl a bit on the brawny side (Serena Williams FTW!)

I think it'll happen some day; just look at how the variety in head molds has increased in the past year or two. The bodies will catch up.

Word.

I have absolutely nothing against the current girl builds... "Slender young girl" works beautifully for some concepts, and "Mature woman with pin-up girl proportions" is perfect for others... BUT-

Where's our rock-climber/martial artist girl? Where's our tall, gangly Pippi Longstockings? Where's our sword-swinging, butt-kicking barbarian queen?

There's getting to be a bit more variety in male body types... I really hope we see a similar evolution on the female side.

[InkyBear]

*waves hand* me!

Yup! Me as well! My favorite little boy actually requires love handles and a little bit of a belly for him to be entirely accurate, and believe you me I was more than just a little disappointed to find no mini boys with such a body sculpt and he's just going to have to do without. Not all cute boys have to have washboard abs! :angry

I get a little frustrated as well that most people seem to agree that if a girl doll has wider hips and maybe some thicker thighs then she's sufficiently 'meaty'. These dolls that have been pointed out to be a bit on the bigger side still have very small ( proportionately speaking ), or narrow waist. Maybe that's not what people want and are happy for their 'extra curvy' girl to just have thicker hips and whatnot, but I would like to see one with a tummy that suited those hips.

[Aussie grrrl]

I will just get back in my box now:) I'm glad to see there are some lovers of the real man out there! My husband will be pleased!
I would love to see more well rounded girls out there too( or just more realistic!). I am currently in love with Tinybears BonBon as she is a whole lotta woman! But she is more a fantasy type doll (ie, a pixie) not really a representation of the human form.

[naughtyfairyspirit]

I don't think I've ever used the word "unnatural" towards BJD, even the tall skinny boys/men body types don't seem entirely imposable to me.
When Unidoll came out with Jace I thought he was more realistic than other BJD boys because he has a ruggedness in his face and body. Sure, I don't know any guys who are as built as Uni real men, but I also don't know any guys with soft girlish faces like CP boys, but I can't imagine anyone wanting a Jace on a dollshe or Delf body.
I have seen an El on a Uni real boy body, it looked good to me as a doll but if I ever met a guy like that in real life my first impression would be "female body builder".