(Question changed)The Dominate Style of Face-ups

[~Carrot!]

(To avoid confusion and to have a better understanding of my question,I changed the title of the topic/question from"What is a Professional face-up?" to "The Dominate Style of Face-ups".)

I was recently told my first face-up was bad (Here's the thread (http://loosely-strung.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=84&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)), but I was also told that for my face-up to be decent it had to have these small perfectly aligned brushstrokes seen on just about all the professional face-up artists dolls, basically a traditional naturalistic style.


I understood the people critiquing my work wanted me to know what it took to achieve this popular style, they looked for in most face-up artists. Yet, I had no desire to emulate the popular style just so Chiumbo's face could look to good everyone, so I thanked the posters for their critiques and advice, but I realized I had no intention of changing his face up. Why? Because, I actually like the way it looked and I thought it fit his character.

Therefore, I would like to understand why this naturalistic style is so dominant and why most people consider emulating this style so important when it comes to being considered a good face-up artist?

(I hope this question doesn't confuse anyone?):?

[Marilyn]

It's all subjective really. I've seen people gush over face-ups that I consider ho-hum, and I've seen amateurs do work that I think blows most of the LE stuff from companies out the water. Your style may not appeal to the majority (sorry, big bushy eyebrows don't work for me either :sweat), but other people's opinions are of no consequence. Enjoy your doll however you see fit. ;)

The only thing I can say about being professional, is to make sure your work is not sloppy (take your time), and for safety's sake, seal it well. :nod

[Karhys]

Professional when it's applied to faceups is definitely a subjective term, imho -- there are plenty of supposedly "professional" faceup artists whose work is mediocre or middling, and there are plenty of faceup artists who consider themselves "amateur" whose work is absolutely stunning.
I think it's up to you yourself to decide whether you are happy with the quality of your work and whether the faceup suits the style you are seeking with your doll. Professional or otherwise, I think mainly just neat, tidy work and a natural blending of colours and style. (I mean, don't draw it jerkily on the doll's head with a texta kind of thing, non-blotchy pastel blending, etc.)

I'm at the opposite extreme of you in that I favour overly thin eyebrows on my dolls, so I can't make a decent evaluation of your faceup, sorry. XD I actually harass my faceup artists obsessively to make the eyebrows thinner most of the time. :oops It's entirely about personal taste, which is half of what makes these dolls so much fun!

There are "professional" artists who people pay thousands for whose work personally doesn't appeal to me and I just find ho-hum. There are professional artists who I'd never buy because the style doesn't suit me personally but whose work I love to look at because it always fascinates me. And there are "amateur" artists who I absolutely adore and worship, and who I'd commission the hell out of if I had enough available heads to do so. But for each of those it's because the style they do appeals exactly to the style I want for my dolls.

I've also done my own faceups, not been happy with the overall quality, and sent the head to faceup artists saying "recreate this exact faceup but prettier". XD And been extremely pleased and satisfied with the result! So you can even be happy with the style of a faceup you've done but not happy with the quality.
I'm more than happy to pay other people a goodly sum of money to create a faceup that I'm incapable of creating myself, and whether they consider themselves amateur or pro, or whether they're considered amateur or pro, is irrelevant to me at the end of the day. If I like the quality of their work, that's what counts. :D

If you're happy with the quality of your own work, that's what counts to you. :nod Because this hobby is purely about enjoyment, and if you're not enjoying your own dolls, what's the point?

[Janne]

I have to agree that appreciation of a face-up is completely subjective. I've seen technically competent make-ups that don't seem (to me) to have any personality - and less perfectly executed face-ups that really had something wild and wonderful about them. I've seen professional artist face-ups that were perfect in every way, and sparkling with personality, and simply didn't appeal to me.

I've done a few myself that were not great - but I was happy with them. :)

"Professional level" artistry, though, to me refers to someone whose work is not only technically proficient, but contains that special, almost undefinable something - on a doll's face, it makes the doll come to life. I would guess it's achieved the way most artistic excellence is achieved - a combination of talent, knowledge of materials, and practice.

For my own taste, I really love a make-up that doesn't call attention to itself - that becomes part of the doll's features and doesn't leave you analyzing how much blush or eye shadow was used, or how many brushstrokes make up the eyelashes.

[Otty]

Professional face-up...hmmm ability to face-up doll that make doll's owner satisfy, having responsibility and accountability ^ ^

Well, or at least do face-up with their own style and with quality as shown in gallery :)

[Luckyl]

I think many doll collectors want a perfectly straight eyelash, bland nondescript colors on their dolls, and that same rather boring aesthetic that so many face-up artists seem to strive for.

I have just started to do face-ups myself and although I know i need more practice and skill to improve what I am doing, I find my own face-ups very interesting and more artistic than the run of the mill stuff that may be technically perfect with every lash and brush stroke perfectly executed, but has no personality or soul.

Your work has soul and you tried something out of the box. I liked what I saw of your work, but if the eyebrows looked messy or overly smudged in close-up, I may think differently. That does'nt mean that what you did overall is not cool and worthwhile. It just means as long as you are happy with the result, you learn something from doing it, and you had fun, that is really all that matters.

I learned very quickly that sometimes there is no rhyme or reason about what pleases someone or turns off someone else when it comes to personal taste and preferences. There are lots of creative, artistic, people out there in the doll world who are willing to put themselves out there and try something different only to get shot down or to get virtually no feedback at all. Like Karhys mentioned there is lots of mediocre work that gets raves, and outstanding work that goes unnoticed.

Professional face-up to me means done with a very high level of artistic technical ability, taste, and creativity. I am not at that level because I lack the technical ability and experience and even if I get good enough, have no desire to mess with taking commissions. There are face-up artists employed with some fairly large doll companies that do "unprofessional face-ups" because they lack technical ability, or are not allowed the time to be creative with what they are producing for the mass marketplace.

Carrot, I agree that it is important that a doll's face-up fit the character, but if it is messy, lacks definition, and is way off in symmetry then that is not a professional face-up IMO. Sometimes being able to look critically at your own work takes time and is definitely not the easiest thing in the world to do.

[saraquill]

My definition of a professional faceup is strictly dictionary. If the artist has been paid to do it, then it is profesional, regardless of the quality. In regards as to what I feels makes for a good face on a doll, I'm less certain. It's pretty much a "I'll know it when I see it" kind of situation. I feel that your faceup suits the doll's mold quite well and gives a strong RPG-fantasy character appearance.

The thing I consider vital for all faceups, professional or homebrew, is a pair of steady hands.

[Osaka]

I rather agree with Janne's definition of a "professional" face-up. Technical and artistic ability, hand in hand. There's people with incredible technical ability with no artistic vision whatsoever, and incredibly artistic people whose skills may not be as technically sound. I'd personally rather pay for a more artistic person to do a face-up than a technically superior, yet uninspired, face-up.

Ranty time! ^^;

That being said, I rather get frustrated at the communal response toward "good vs bad" faceups. Not everyone wants to send out their heads for faceups, either because of money or artistic vision, and NO ONE starts off doing perfect faceups. It is something that does require a lot of practice, and most people realize that their initial faceups aren't up to "professional" standard. It shouldn't matter if the person is happy with how their doll looks, or if they managed to capture a certain something of the doll's personality. There's no need for ten million people to pile on to say "Your face-up sucks" if the owner is happy with it. IMO, it seems as the doll community has gotten larger, the acceptance of beginner face-ups has decreased. Also, as Luckyl points out, people who do try different things do get skewered or ignored. (has been skewered and ignored in past)
[/rant]

My major issue with "amateur" face-ups is when people start expecting to be paid on the same level as a "professional" artist for commissions when they are producing sloppy results. I don't necessarily want every eyelash in perfect minute detail, or tiny, flawless eyebrow hairs, but it shouldn't look shaky, uneven, or messy.

As for ~Carrot!'s faceup--the eyebrows make me think a LOT of the anime/manga Basilisk. ^-^ Was that intentional on your part?

I rather like them, they are very exaggerated and a nice departure from the dainty eyebrows that 99.9999999% of elfy-type heads have. (Though, I do have a preference for bushy brows--not to that extreme, perhaps--and facial hair on male dolls.) I'd like to see a close-up, but I certainly see no reason to change them if *you* are pleased with them.

[~Carrot!]

Luckyl Now, I do believe that practicing the techniques, such as understanding definition and symmetry is very important. However, when it comes to creating the face-up itself, I can practice the important techniques all day long, but I don't believe I can make a face-up with the same aesthetic as the established face-up artists have, because I am not those face-up artists, I am, who I am. No matter how hard I try to copy the style of the most famous artist, I will not succeed, because who I am as an individual will always shine through and my vision of what a doll's mold should look like, will not be the same as everyone else's.


Everyone What I probably should have asked is, what is the best face-up for a doll's mold? I hope I didn't confuse anyone with my question?:oops




Osaka Well, I was inspired by Jak (http://users.telenet.be/intothelight/gallery1/galleryjak1_page11.html) from the PS2 game Jak and Daxter and Ryu (http://www.fanpop.com/spots/street-fighter/links/1523148) from the Street Fighter series and I wanted him to look like a heroic character.:sweat

[Janne]

Everyone What I probably should have asked is, what is the best face-up for a doll's mold? I hope I didn't confuse anyone with my question?:oops

Well, I wasn't confused before, but I am now. *^_^*

I think you're asking ... is a non-traditional style of face-up (such as an anime style - color-blocked areas instead of brush strokes) as legitimate as the traditional, dolly-naturalistic style...?

For my answer, I think any style that works is great. I remember one doll artist who went with a very anime style (and of course did it beautifully) and his dolls looked amazing. I've certainly used the color-blocked area for eyebrows before myself (mostly out of laziness) and loved the effect.

Oh, and for my money, professional doesn't mean someone who got paid for doing something. (That would make me a professional lawn mower - although I'm not very good at it.)

It means someone who makes a living - or is capable of making a living - by their skills or learning in an area. An expert, as it were.

[~Carrot!]

I wanted to have a discussion about the traditional naturalistic style; why is this style considered the best style and why is it so important for most to emulate this style? Is that a better explination? I'll reword the beginning post to avoid anymore confusion.*_* :doh

[Osaka]

I love Street Fighter. Ken and Ryu and their uber-brows For The Win.

As always, the following is just my opinion...^^;

I don't know if I'd say the naturalistic style is the most popular because people *love* it, but perhaps more because it is the least polarizing style? It's a nice middle ground, not likely to offend anyone. It's like default company face-ups--they aren't going to do a lot to inspire a lot of strong feelings in either direction.

But, as a result, most people have come to accept "least polarizing" = "best." This isn't necessarily the case, but since so much of the doll hobby acts like a never-ending popularity contest, people seek the style that will gain the most acceptance. Go too far in any extreme, and there's going to be people who don't like it, and that's a seeming taboo in some people's eyes. "You want everyone to like your doll, right?" No, not necessarily.

There's a quote by Voltaire that sums it well to me "...those who walk on the well-trodden path always throw stones at those who are showing a new road."

I hope my rambly post makes some sort of sense! ^^;

[Luckyl]

But, as a result, most people have come to accept "least polarizing" = "best." This isn't necessarily the case, but since so much of the doll hobby acts like a never-ending popularity contest, people seek the style that will gain the most acceptance. Go too far in any extreme, and there's going to be people who don't like it, and that's a seeming taboo in some people's eyes. "You want everyone to like your doll, right?" No, not necessarily.

There's a quote by Voltaire that sums it well to me "...those who walk on the well-trodden path always throw stones at those who are showing a new road."

I hope my rambly post makes some sort of sense! ^^;[/QUOTE]
Well put Osaka, but I do think that sometimes really well done extreme mods, face-ups, photoshoots etc. do get noticed and appreciated most of the time... but, especially if the doll is a popular mold and the artist/person who did it is popular on a forum also.

Another thing to consider is that this is all a matter of personal taste and style which is in the eye of the beholder. What one person thinks suits a mold fantastically, may not always be aesthetically pleasing to someone else.

Art is always a very personal and subjective experience. I think that is why many of use choose to try and learn how to do face-ups ourselves-to break away from the normal and sometimes boring, and individualize/create an artistic statement.

I look forward to seeing more of your progress on your creations Carrot.

[Janne]

I really wasn't aware that the naturalistic style was considered "best" - most of my friends tend to go with a sort of Goth-y or J-Pop look (and do wonderful things with it.)

But if it is considered superior, I'd say it was probably for the same reason that people - particularly people who aren't schooled in art - tend to like naturalistic paintings over abstract ones.

Ask your average person to say which is "best" - a lovely redhead by Dante Gabriel Rosetti or a splayed female torso by Picasso. They're both skilled works by master artists. (Personally, while I admire Picasso, I'd rather have the Rosetti on my wall. Sue me. :D )

That said, I actually really like what you've done with your doll's face, Carrot. It's interesting and gives your boy a lot of character. (And there's something fun about it that might be lost if drawn with more symmetry. I personally think symmetry's overrated.)

[~Carrot!]

Thank you!:peace Right now, I'm the process of modding my DIM Adonis (http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j171/Herc_TVShow/Hercules%20and%20The%20Poseidon%20Cup%20Adventure/?action=view&current=Pict0509.jpg) Minimee to look more like himself from the Disney show Hercules.:XD

[InkyBear]

Well, got kind of wound up and then mixed around while reading through that but I'll try my best to answer with my own opinion on the matter.

I don't think people assume natural styles are considered superior or better than more extreme face-ups at all, but I think the reason people aim for others to learn natural styles first is because it all has to do with the basics. It's like when you first learn to start to draw, so many people want to jump in and start with crazy exaggeration and all that, but you will see time and time again that people with more skill will tell them to learn the basics first. Learn realism first because you can't exaggerate and change something you don't know. Does that make sense? More edgy and out there face-ups require a bit more of a different technique than natural face-ups, so I think it's important to have a basic grasp of that first, which is what I think other people agree on as well.

Also, I think another reason people go for natural face-ups first is going back to that whole issue about there being so many different types of tastes and preferances out there. Sure, there's an extreme left and an extreme right, but I think most of those radical extremists are in the minority when compaired to how many people fall somewhere in the middle ( not bland and boring, just not to the ultimate right or left ), so for someone who wants to up their skill to maybe take on comissions or something, it's just a smart business move to learn natural style. That way they can probably tweak it just enough to get a little fantasy or gothy for theur customers, but they're not pigeon-holing themselves into one small niche.

Anyway, I think there was more I wanted to say on the matter but it got somewhat lost in translation -_-

[Agnes]

InkyBear, you explained it very well.

Extremes are called so because most people will gravitate to the middle of the spectrum. It's why most doll molds have a fairly neutral expression rather than a very clear display of emotion: it's more flexible, less specific, so it is more likely to appeal to a larger number of people.

When it comes to faceups, I would be much more inclined to commission an artist that had his/her own style but also could show examples of more neutral faceups. That way I'd know that s/he was not just stuck in one narrow style of faceups, and that I'd have some control over how modest/extreme my faceup would be.

[april]

I've never heard that naturalistic style is best, either. I agree with InkyBear that the skills involved in doing a "basic" or "naturalistic" faceup are important to know. It doesn't mean that naturalistic is better or worse than another style, though. It goes back to what Marilyn said at the top about just making the faceup--in whatever style-- competent and not sloppy or crude or messy. It's just about being able to control your brushes or applicators to a level that you can actually create what you intend to create.

Now, if you're going for a look that's all about badly applied, messy makeup, that's fine, too. It's not as skilled or professional, perhaps, but it's just as valid as any other look. It's your doll and the faceup is up to you!!!

In other words, people have all sorts of opinions. It doesn't mean that they're right or that you have to listen to them!

[Rayne]

just like in real life every person sees beauty in a different way, its the same with these dolls everyones opinion of what is beautiful to them is what they want, but luckily everyone is different and the variations are endless.

[elphsnt]

Well, I like my face-ups to be more neutral... not because it's better, but because it's the aesthetic I personally prefer. Since I can't even hold a brush and would never dream of painting a doll's head I can't really "critique". I can only say what I like and what I don't. And, I think when asking for "critique" those who may have a more artistic slant may receive better feedback if they worded their critique to specifically request technical feedback (brush strokes, gloss on the lips techniques, blushing techniques, etc.) versus feedback of a more subjective nature. In other words, critique your own work first and ask for specific suggestions to make it even better.

The truth is that no doll is liked by everyone. It doesn't matter who does the face-up.