Price policing - good idea or bad one?

[zalem]

The topic was brought up in the Marketplace security thread, but I really think it's something that could use it's own thread.

Price policing is one way of keeping scalpers and flippers in check. But it's also pretty controversial. Do you think price policing is a good idea? Is there some better alternative that we can come up with to fight scalping and flipping?

I hate scalping and flipping with a passion, but I'm uncertain about price policing. Part of me thinks that it can be hard to define what is scalping and what isn't. I'm afraid people might go overboard with the price policing. Is adding $10 to the price scalping? $20? $50? But at other times the scalping/flipping is just so flagrant and obvious that it really makes me want to say something.

Is there something we can do as a community to help each other out and warn each other about scalpers and flippers? Or should we simply let buyers and sellers figure things out themselves?

[edit] When I talk of "price policing" I'm *not* talking about forum rules telling people what to sell their items for, but about allowing members to question the prices of items in public or in private since that is what is considered "price policing" on DoA.

[avacado]

I think that it's a great idea. There are a lot of people in this hobby that are only in it for the money and not the enjoyment of these dolls. There have been plenty of times where I would have liked to buy a doll, but it was hundreds or thousands of dollars more that what the doll was originally. I understand that getting a limited doll is difficult, but I don't think that it's fair to rip someone off for their need to have a particular doll.

I can use myself as an example I got my Volks Williams Limited for $800 dollars, in great condition. But other auctions I've seen for him he was $2,000 dollars or more. I think it boils down to how honest people are.

But if a seller puts the actually price of the doll an holds an auction and the price gets bid up to that amount then it's okay, because the bidding individuals are willing to pay that price.

[Mid]

I think, within reason, a person should be able to argue the price someone sets. I can think of several cases in which I wanted to challenge the price a seller set mostly cause the dolls were still available for retail price.

Sometimes it would be really great to hear the reasoning behind jacking up the prices (either a little or a lot). There are sometimes really good reasons behind a price that seems really unfair.

[Lady Brick]

I tend to think that some sort of price guide that shows the range of or average price limiteds have sold for is a good way to go. I don't really approve of price policing, but giving people the resources to make informed decisions is always a good thing.

[rottenlullaby]

Hm.

As far as scalping goes I'm not a fan of it. Price policing is and can be rather tricky though because where do you draw the line what is too high of a price? I think that if maybe we were to have some sort of price guide like Lady Brick suggested, then it might be okay to call someone out if they were setting their price hundreds of dollers over the market value. As far as rare limiteds go..market value fluctuates, and it would be really hard to tell on those. I think as it comes down to it, selling at current market value cant be called scalping per say..but selling at market value with a large mark-up can and then would be a good candite for price policing. So yes I think we could price police to keep scalpers at bay as long as we were fair about it.

[lachlana]

I could see where price policing would get out of hand (I think debating a $10 mark-up, or perhaps even a couple of hundred dollars if the doll has been significantly customized etc could induce all sorts of unwanted drama.) But in the cases where it's flagrantly obvious that the doll has been heavily jacked up in price and perhaps even the seller has been guilty of 'questionable' practices before--then yeah, they should definitely be called out on it. And yet I totally agree, that if an item is started at a certain price and is then bid up, then that was at the doing of the bidders themselves and what the item is worth to them, and therefore shouldn't really be argued.

AT least that's my 2 cents ^^

[syrinx]

I agree with the having people start their dolls/items at retail and letting others bid it up. If the item is modified in any way or customized, I do think the seller should be able to name their own price for that because it's not exactly the original item anymore. Then I suppose if someone didn't like any policies that were put in place, they could go to Ebay and charge whatever they wanted. A free marketplace on a board is a privilege, it shouldn't be a right to do as you please.

[Mich]

I really like the idea of a price range of what a full doll/ part would be considered fair. Then as long as ppl readily have access to this info, they can then choose themselves if they want to pay more or not.

[Mara]

Holy crap, that would be SO AWESOME.

Maybe even say something, like, I don't know, you can't sell a doll on this forum for more than X% of the original retail price? It's sort of like rent control.

Anything and anyone who does anything to help protect the consumer is, in my eyes, pretty darn close to sainthood. I've had a very bad business dealing this morning (not doll-related) and am really into the idea of this "price policing" of which you speak. Sure, you can argue that you can charge whatever price the market will bear. I really applaud anyone who can ask the questions that nobody wants to ask regarding selling ethics. It's not easy and it's probably also neither fair nor fun, but... wow, I feel excited just thinking about it! ;_;

[BazookaBaby]

I like this idea a lot. It's just hard to pinpoint what is "fair" for some. And, what if you have someone who paid a lot for a doll when they got it (like, second hand U-noa prices) and then tries to sell it for what they paid. Is that considered scalping even though they're asking what they paid for it? I think that what others said, about having a "starting price" and letting others bid up from there, is a great idea. That way it puts the price in the hands of the buyers. If the seller doesn't like it, there are other doll forums with market places or eBay.

[inkstone]

Overall, I think it's a good idea.

That said, I agree with the others that setting a starting price at retail and then letting bids run up the price is totally fine. I also think mods & customizations allow for increased prices within reason. It depends on the extent of the modifications, I'd say.

[Cynthia]

I like this idea a lot. It's just hard to pinpoint what is "fair" for some. And, what if you have someone who paid a lot for a doll when they got it (like, second hand U-noa prices) and then tries to sell it for what they paid. Is that considered scalping even though they're asking what they paid for it? I think that what others said, about having a "starting price" and letting others bid up from there, is a great idea. That way it puts the price in the hands of the buyers. If the seller doesn't like it, there are other doll forums with market places or eBay.

I've been thinking about the "bought high" problem, too. It does happen--I paid a huge price for my Unoa boy, so with price policing I would probably be accused of trying to scalp if I offered him FS at the exact price I paid. And accusations like that both hurt and tend to stick, you know?

As much as I loathe scalping, I would be really concerned if this forum's mods set--or if the forum's members vigilante-policed--starting prices for sellers. Is it really the forum's desire to *force* fellow BJD owners to lose money, and to label them as scalpers, in cases where they bought at high prices?

[eveshka]

Price Policing is a sticky wicket, and the market helps bear that responsibility. If someone wants $130 for a head... and you can get it from the company for $107, the 'policing' is done by buying it from the company.

Then again, there's always a reason why the head may be worth $130... and the seller simply hasn't stated it. Often times, a polite 'wow, that's more than I was expecting... have improvements been made' PM can clear up issues.

Then again, there's always the case of a limited bought and immediately stripped apart for profit. It doesn't just happen here in BJD world. The Gene/Tonner world is far, far worse, if you can believe it.

[Merry]

Price policing is a super touchy subject. I think in a forum atmosphere one way it could be handled without heavy moderation is be raising awareness of what the costs of various dolls truly are. I'm thinking original market price and common aftermarket price and a note as to whether or not the doll/head is still readily available. Aftermarket price should be referenced with proof that the doll/head has increased in value due to rarity and/or faceup and modifications (perhaps a link to an auction showing it starting at around original market price and increased or a link the customizers website and rate schedule).

In this way, people could sort of triangulate in on what price to expect to pay for a certain doll. Say, if several people purchased a doll for around $800 and one person purchased the same doll near the same time for $2000 we could assume the last person, unfortunately, was victim to a scalper. OTOH, if several people buy a doll for $2000 and one person gets the same doll for $800 it could be assumed the last person landed themselves a fantastic deal.

Now, I'm not really in a position to speak for what could go on the wiki but it might be the case we could start pricing threads for certain dolls in the Wiki forum and once enough information has been gathered it's possible we could move that thread into a sub-page of the appropriate doll company listing. Again, we'd have to run this by the admins but if there is enough interest maybe it's do-able.

What does everyone think? Would this be a good way to help others and raise awareness?

My main concern is that people might scoff if they feel someone overpaid. Of course, no one likes to feel they were tricked and if they paid a large amount for a certain doll obviously it was worth it to them. It would be hard enough to admit one overpaid but I feel if we are supportive and understanding their information will be a great addition to such an endeavor.

[ShadowLink]

I tend to think that some sort of price guide that shows the range of or average price limiteds have sold for is a good way to go. I don't really approve of price policing, but giving people the resources to make informed decisions is always a good thing.

I totally agree. It would be of much help, I for one was a bit upset when someone sold me someting for a lot more when I discovered it only was a fraction of the price at the original store. At least things stores sell should not be re-sold for a higher price. (If I did know about that store I would have bought from them instead)

Also, "bought high" is a problem like others members have said. We can't be expected to sell something at a lower price when we just want to try to get the money back. Then again we've to think about the item in question, If its a limited edition or one of a kind, bought merely to make profit... Overall, this is a very tricky issue.

[Lady Brick]

Now, I'm not really in a position to speak for what could go on the wiki but it might be the case we could start pricing threads for certain dolls in the Wiki forum and once enough information has been gathered it's possible we could move that thread into a sub-page of the appropriate doll company listing. Again, we'd have to run this by the admins but if there is enough interest maybe it's do-able.

I'm not sure how in-depth the Wiki will end up being, but if there are actual entries for specific dolls, perhaps "retail" and "current market" prices could be among the information provided. That way, when a doll is listed in the marketplace, the actual name of the model would link to a page with information about the release of the doll.

It seems like entries for some of the more popular models might be a good idea anyway, since some companies like Volks have detailed stories for the different dolls.

[Jenova]

While nobody like scalping, I agree with those who have said price-policing might be a very sticky thing to implement, especially in cases like BazookaBaby brings up -- with highly limited and popular dolls, paying high secondhand prices is often the norm.

I like the idea of a price guide -- people can check the average price of the doll (scalping does seem to come up as an issue most often for dolls themselves...) and decide if a seller's price is fair to them. Is (as a random example) $1000 too much for a Tan Shall? To me, yes -- I was lucky enough to get mine at retail. For someone who's been wanting one since they were released and couldn't afford one until now? Maybe that's a fair price to them. I think in a market of limited, hard-to-get, and sentimentally valuable items like ABJDs, it can be difficult to objectively decide what's "too expensive"...

[AENEAS]

A list of acceptable range on limiteds sounds ok but even that sounds hard to manage especially on artist sculpts.

[SharonFish]

I like the idea of making the information about common market prices easily available and an open attitude to discussing pricing with a seller much more than price policing. I think a firm "this is how much you can ask" stance is likely to get very sticky where limiteds and custom dolls are concerned. Encouraging someone to be open about why they set their price the way they did will probably weed out many scalpers and step on fewer toes then a firm rule on pricing.

[miss sha]

I think price policing should definitely be allowed, if it can be done so in a way that won't have people pointing fingers are every item priced $20 over retail.

Maybe policing is too harsh of a word for it? I don't think there ought to be any problems with someone politely asking why an item is priced that way in the thread. It gives the seller a chance to offer up an explanation without feeling like they're being harshly accused.

[Xi-feng]

Being the one who (I think) brought this up in the first place, I think my view on the subject is not that the mods should be in charge of actively policing the marketplace (we know you guys have enough on your plates quite apart from this sort of thing) or even that there should be 'price rules' in place that mean you can only sell a specific doll way within a price range. I think that's going too far and asking the mods to take too much personal responsibility in the affairs of buyers and sellers, and it's a rather unreasonable thing to expect. As well as this, I also agree with the "if you don't agree with the price, don't buy it" philosophy.

What I would really like, I think, would simply be the ability to post in a thread that has blatant scalping going on and be able to say "Don't you think that's rather high? That doll was being sold at Dollpa for $400 cheaper just last week!" My major problem with the DoA marketplace is that any comments along these lines are strongly discouraged and deleted as soon as they're posted, almost. While I don't think the Resinality mods should need to be hands-on in the marketplace (we're all adults here, right? That's what the 18+ is in aid of, after all) I think by the same token we should be allowed to police ourselves as a community. 'Police' may be too strong a word, even: discussion should be allowed within the marketplaces, with buyers allowed to directly question a seller's prices... and, yes, sellers allowed to defend those prices, if they feel it's necessary. Nothing more, nothing less.

[AreeElf]

I tend to think that some sort of price guide that shows the range of or average price limiteds have sold for is a good way to go. I don't really approve of price policing, but giving people the resources to make informed decisions is always a good thing.

I second this idea. I've seen it used in another forum a price guide helps keep an average price of sale for an item. It does involve someone maintaining it though. Perhaps a monthly update with a few people assigned the job who can take turns

I don't think going into other peoples threads suggesting prices should be allowed because this can get a bit out of hand with people trying to haggle a price down by putting pressure on a seller

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I'm all for a generalised price guide and the ability to ask questions in the seller's thread.

to use Xi-feng's example of "Don't you think that's rather high? That doll was being sold at Dollpa for $400 cheaper just last week!", I'm sure there might be people who had no idea there even was a dolpa last week, let alone what the original price was.

[astrosnik]

I don't think the moderators should have the ability to price-police. There is already implication that moderators (not necessarily here) have special leeway with marketplace privileges that shouldn't be encouraged. Dolls are luxury items, and buyers should be willing to do limited research to see if prices set are fair, and also to be able to judge for themselves what they're willing to pay. I absolutely agree that comments about pricing should be permitted- if they're not overly antagonistic- in FS threads.

Maintaining a current value price guide seems to me a little ridiculous, due to the size of the market and the drastic fluxuation. There is too much variation in marketplace descriptions on the various forums and auction sites to make an automated program feasable. Listing release prices in the wiki would be sufficient, giving buyers the opportunity to judge asking price versus retail and estimate the markup. Some buyers have to pay shopping or commission fees, taxes, customs or special shipping that will increase what they would charge for an item, and I believe they have the right to seek compensation if a buyer is willing to pay it. If you're concerned with immediately flipping, maybe you could set a time frame for which the buyer has to have the item before resale, or at least restrictions like having the item in-hand (no presales).

[zalem]

I think they already have a no presales rule here. Or I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere. That's definitely a rule that I'm happy they have here.

[astrosnik]

I think they already have a no presales rule here. Or I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere. That's definitely a rule that I'm happy they have here.
Woops, doubled checked that and yep. You're correct.

[koi]

A generalized price guide seems like a good idea, or a market value thread that gives you a price range for the doll you want to either sell or buy. And also being able to ask questions on a sales thread seems fair.

[Sola]

I don't evne see the need for price guides; the simple expident of being able to speak one's mind does a world for discouraging people who think their unfair practices are going to be protected because everyone has to be nice, and no one wants to give bad feedback.

[greeniebone]

Sorry, but I have to say that I disagree with Price Policing, and I would not approve of any form of implementation of it in a forum setting. I think "Caveat Emptor" (buyer beware) is the best policy. It should be up to the seller to choose their price, and the buyer to research what is reasonable and fair.

[halfling]

Pricing policy is opening up a huge can of worms that everyone involved probably wants to avoid.

I agree with the others who've said that being able to point out that someone is charging too much is the best method of scalping prevention.

[Lizzard]

I don't believe there should be a formal pricing policy on the board.

I do, however, believe that people should be allowed to post freely in sales threads regarding pricing concerns. People with legitimate reasons for setting their prices as the level they are can easily respond and clear up any questions for all to see. People without legitimate prices will be "caught" and will end up taking their scalped goods elsewhere.

[bunnydots]

With all due respect, I think the amount one wants to pay for a doll is a personal decision. As a buyer, I haven't appreciated it at all when an overzealous person tried to butt in and disrupt a transaction because they thought the price was too high. I understand that sometimes people are trying to be helpful, but there's an undercurrent of "this person is obviously too stupid to know that they are paying too much". Basically, I pay what I want to pay for dolls. If someone asks more than I am willing to pay at that point in time, or more than I can afford, I don't buy.
I can understand rules like "no selling for friends" - if you're going to sell something, at least own up to it. But plenty of things don't sell because they're priced too high, so the market does work, and price policing leaves way too much room for people to needlessly point fingers and impose their own version of pricing morality on everybody else whether the other people want that or not.

[mellie]

I'm in agreement with Xi-feng and Lizzard. I think setting rules for what prices people can set their items at is a bit much. However, I think it would be beneficial for everyone if people were allowed to comment freely in sales threads.

Scalpers and flippers would probably be less likely to constantly try and pawn off their goods for a huge markup if there are people who question it. It also gives sellers and opportunity to respond with an explanation if they need to. This way people can see when others are "I paid xx plus yy shipping, so I'm charging zz."

If the buyer still wants to buy it, fine. But there are a lot of new people to the hobby who just don't know how much the doll may be worth, and I'm sure those people would appreciate others looking out for them. It'd cut down on the "wah, I found out I paid 600 more for a doll second hand than I could have bought new."

[bunnydots]

But there are a lot of new people to the hobby who just don't know how much the doll may be worth, and I'm sure those people would appreciate others looking out for them. It'd cut down on the "wah, I found out I paid 600 more for a doll second hand than I could have bought new."

As an alternative, how about some sort of guide for buyers as to how to check the prices of dolls? Something that doesn't list specific prices, but suggests practical tips like "check on the individual doll company website; review closed auctions; etc." Or a forum where if someone wanted to know prices, they could specifically ask about it there, with maybe a suggestion in the "buyers guide" that people who don't already have knowledge inquire about the price in the forum before they go out to purchase a doll somewhere?

This would allow people to get help who need and want help, while minimizing the amount of finger-pointing every time someone thinks a price is 50 dollars over the limit, or generally objects to the idea of a limited going for a high secondary market price.

This would also help people who are looking to buy dolls on Y!J, eBay, through private sale (i.e. in response to a WTB ad) and so forth. Basically, when people are allowed to price-police on seller threads, a lot of sellers take their sales to an auction or a private sale context anyway, so price-policing may not help that much if all it does is drive the practice underground.

[Em]

I'm not too keen on the idea of formal price policing in the forum.
I'm against scalping as much as the next person but I feel it's up to the buyer to research current pricing trends before purchasing. I also believe it's within the sellers rights to charge what they like. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of enforcing something that is a subjective moral standpoint (does that even make sense??). As I said in the other thread, ultimately buyers are only going to pay what they feel comfortable paying...and that's their business.

However, I feel the forum can help in informing sellers of current market trends. Though I feel this could be hard to maintain/keep up-to-date, perhaps if some individuals offered to maintain it? Much like the Wiki?

I'm torn on the idea of commenting on pricing in market threads. In general it seems like a reasonable idea as long as people use tact and maturity but then the whole thing is still subjective...what counts as a 'legitimate' reason for a price hike?

[mellie]

This would also help people who are looking to buy dolls on Y!J, eBay, through private sale (i.e. in response to a WTB ad) and so forth. Basically, when people are allowed to price-police on seller threads, a lot of sellers take their sales to an auction or a private sale context anyway, so price-policing may not help that much if all it does is drive the practice underground.
To me, price-policing implies that people TELL other people what they can or cannot sell their dolls at. This is not what I'm talking about. Commenting on someone's thread because they blatantly mark a doll up hundreds of dollars and saying "Isn't this a bit high?" or "You can get this new for 400 less" is not the same as telling someone they can't sell the doll at that price. If the buyer still wants to buy it, fine. But I think having an environment where no one's allowed to say anything is only going to encourage scalping.

I think a price guide is not only going to be a lot of work to set up, but a lot of work to maintain. Prices fluctuate constantly, and telling someone to look up the company website when the doll may no longer be in production is really unhelpful. A lot of companies take down the prices once their limited dolls are sold out. A price guide isn't going to help with that because instead of people being helpful, people are going to whine about the retail price even if the doll has been out of production for years.

Whatever the decision is, it's not going to make everyone happy, but I honestly think the best thing is to let people comment on sales threads. No one's saying they can't sell, and it's still the buyer's decision, but it will also reduce the amount of blatant scalping.

[Loki]

I don't think a strict policy would be any good, no one can really define in proper terms what is an appropriate selling price and how far beyond that 'scalping' is. You can't just say cost or near cost, because as people have mentioned, when you buy from an auction at a high price and then eventually at some other point sell on, you still want to try and recoup some of the money spent. Also, from experience selling a few limited clothing items I got at an After Party when the original buyer I went for backed out... I spent 4 hours freaking freezing waiting outside while it was snowing to buy these items and took the day off work to go - I'm sorry, I'm not just going to sell them at cost.

Honestly, I think the best price policing is done for yourself - doing some market research about the going prices of dolls and then figuring out for yourself if the price is too high. I mean, the buyer is the buyer, and they have their money - shouldn't they be able to do a little work and see where the money is going?

I think though that the Wiki could be feasibly updated with approximate prices for limited dolls, at the very least. They don't fluctuate THAT much after a certain given preriod, unless there's a re-release or something generally.

[pas]

I don't believe there should be a formal pricing policy on the board.

I do, however, believe that people should be allowed to post freely in sales threads regarding pricing concerns.

This is what I'd like to see. I think a formal set of rules detailing that x doll can be sold for y amount of money is way too complicated and unrealistic, and would give the mods far too much work. Sellers should be allowed to price items as they see fit, and be under no obligation to change those prices just because someone else thinks it's too high. But by the same token, users should be allowed to ask questions about how those prices were arrived at (civilly, of course) if they have concerns. The seller can explain their pricing, and potential buyers can make up their own mind about whether they want to spend the money or not.

[NightWatch]

Others have said it well already but I thought to chime in my agreement. A formal set of rules for price policing would be too difficult to implement, too much work and just too dodgy. By just allowing the other members to comment or ask questions, I think it would significantly reduce flipping and scalping. The seller is also given a chance to explain, the potential buyer learns more and the other members have a better understanding of what's going on without needing to jump to conclusions.

While I can understand that it might get annoying if a buyer is in the process of the transaction and someone steps in to start asking questions about the price, the marketplace is after all located on a forum. It's open for the members to see and for some discussion to happen is to be expected.

[fullcircleagain]

I agree. Some kind of doll value guide of current market prices is a very good source of information, something that would be easily searchable. This could go hand in hand with some sort of doll identification guide. I know there are many people who have already gathered this information, perhaps it would be helpful to ask them if they would like to contribute.

As for price policing, I believe I already posted elsewhere why it is not a good idea. The forums I looked at do not allow it, it can lead to friction and bad feelings amongst members, and who would be responsible for deciding what is fair and what isn't?

It's very simple, it is up to the buyer to decide whether or not to buy an item. With access to a marketplace value guide it may be the way to take care of this sticky wicket without having every other person pointing fingers just because they want to buy a doll and it's more than they want to pay.

I speak of this from experience. It is why I and many other people I know do not sell any more on forums. It was amazing the number of pms I received from people who wanted to pay less, yet when I placed the same items on Ebay I had no problem selling it. And the items prices was actually less than what others had been paid for. Opening the door for price policing is not a good thing. And honestly, if those who are so for it, if they had a high demand doll they needed to sell, would they sell it for what they paid for and not a penny more?

I can state for a fact that if price policing is allowed, there will be less sellers on here and less opportunities for good deals. Think about it.

[Rhian]

Listing release prices in the wiki would be sufficient, giving buyers the opportunity to judge asking price versus retail and estimate the markup.
This is an extremely good idea. I'll make a note of it on our current wiki-things-to-add list.
Some kind of doll value guide of current market prices is a very good source of information, something that would be easily searchable. This could go hand in hand with some sort of doll identification guide.
This puts me in mind of the Blythe pricing guide (http://fishberryjam.com/blog/blythe-pricing/), which some kind soul maintains. If someone were willing to maintain such a guide (obviously for sales on the second-hand market rather than from company websites), it would be extremely useful! I think it would have to be submission-based, like the Blythe guide, and it would certainly be an interesting and valuable resource for the doll community.

My personal feelings can be pretty well summed up into "caveat emptor", but I can understand the wish of being able to publically question a seller on his/her prices. I believe that this has been problematic in the past because it tends to get hugely out of hand, but perhaps on an 18+ forum, this wouldn't happen? At the very least, there would have to be an understanding that once one person had questioned the seller, there would be no need for anyone else to jump in and do the same.

[bunnydots]

To me, price-policing implies that people TELL other people what they can or cannot sell their dolls at. This is not what I'm talking about. Commenting on someone's thread because they blatantly mark a doll up hundreds of dollars and saying "Isn't this a bit high?" or "You can get this new for 400 less" is not the same as telling someone they can't sell the doll at that price.

Sorry, but to me that's the same thing as "telling". You're insinuating, or suggesting, that something is wrong with the sale. You might as well just be direct about it and say "Hey, I think your price is too high for this doll and you're ripping people off unless you have a darn good explanation." The fact that you're coaching it in "nice" terms doesn't make it any less price policing.

[lyrajean]

Holy crap, that would be SO AWESOME.

Maybe even say something, like, I don't know, you can't sell a doll on this forum for more than X% of the original retail price? It's sort of like rent control.

;_;

While the idea is okay, I think in reality that the effect would be merely to drive people who flip dolls to other venues like ebay...

[chibinezu]

I personally don't like the idea of policing per say but I do like the idea of showing not only the original retail prices for dolls but also making sure that the general second hand price is known so that people can make their own informed choice on whether they really want to supply that scalper with the extra money.

[Cynthia]

I'm getting more and more concerned as I read this thread; it seems to me as if a lot of members (not all, by any means, but a lot) see "buyers" and "sellers" as two entirely different categories of people. And "sellers" seems to equal "professional scalpers" in the general discussion here, so there's a rush to protect "us" from "them."

Do y'all really believe that buyers and sellers are separate camps, when you stop and think about it? (If you do, then you can quit reading right now, because nothing I say will make a lick of sense. :sweat)

It's hard for me to imagine that I'm the only BJD owner/buyer who has sold a doll here and there. I've never made a profit; once, I think I did recover the money I originally spent. So, forgive me, but it's a little hard for me to go along with the line of thinking that sees a scalper lurking in every FS post.

Are there honestly so many scalpers that this forum must set up elaborate rules and policies to guard against them, and establish an atmosphere where fellow BJD owners must defend themselves to anyone who wants to accuse them of scalping, or pick at the price they've set? At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon . . . I don't have much faith in the 18+ threshold, as a way of guaranteeing civility and common sense. People of all ages jump on bandwagons when they see them rolling by.

I would be fascinated to see original release prices listed in the Wiki, because that's an important part of BJD history. But for dolls that are no longer available from the manufacturer, the original release price doesn't tell me anything about the cost of buying that doll now. And given the wild fluctuations of online auction prices, I would rather do my own research on Y!J and eBay for a particular doll I'm interested in finding, instead of putting the burden on someone here to maintain a market-value database.

Thanks to fullcircleagain, bunnydots, and others for crystallizing all this in my mind!

[NightWatch]

Er. No, I don't see buyers and sellers as separate people. But I do see scalpers as separate from the everyday buyers and sellers. Why do you assume that we see buyers and sellers as separate people when thinking about scalpers? I don't get that.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I'm getting more and more concerned as I read this thread; it seems to me as if a lot of members (not all, by any means, but a lot) see "buyers" and "sellers" as two entirely different categories of people. And "sellers" seems to equal "professional scalpers" in the general discussion here, so there's a rush to protect "us" from "them."

I disagree. To me its more the dancing around of the naming of names. I've bought and sold plenty and I know they are the same people. But you do have to admit there are a number of people who seem to be selling dolls and hard to find outfits quite often and at rather high rates. It is that particular group with which I personally am concerned, not the casual buyer/seller that most of us are.


Are there honestly so many scalpers that this forum must set up elaborate rules and policies to guard against them, and establish an atmosphere where fellow BJD owners must defend themselves to anyone who wants to accuse them of scalping, or pick at the price they've set?

I think perhaps this is more of a pre-emptive notice that this place doesn't accept scalping/flipping rather than a reaction to who is currently selling. I don't have marketplace access so I don't even know who's selling what.

And quite honestly, I don't care if the scalpers take it elsewhere because I'm not buing from them anyway.


I would be fascinated to see original release prices listed in the Wiki, because that's an important part of BJD history. But for dolls that are no longer available from the manufacturer, the original release price doesn't tell me anything about the cost of buying that doll now. And given the wild fluctuations of online auction prices, I would rather do my own research on Y!J and eBay for a particular doll I'm interested in finding, instead of putting the burden on someone here to maintain a market-value database.


Perhaps a listing of places to check and the y!j search string urls would be enough?
That would enable people to search for themselves and not require as much maintenance.

[s2kitty]

I like the though of just putting up a price list stating original prices of dolls and current market value. This would give buyers and sellers a better idea of what things should sell for. Anything over the $2k mark on some dolls should be stopped. Say the doll came out within the past year at a price of $900 and people are asking $2k minimum - to me that is scalping, I don't care what doll it is.

[AreeElf]

Perhaps a listing of places to check and the y!j search string urls would be enough?
That would enable people to search for themselves and not require as much maintenance.
I was also thinking that having these type of links does help. I often refer to Cassiel's site and DoA link to Y!J searches to get an idea of how much a doll or item is going for in Japan. It helps me gauge if a doll or accessory selling in the marketplace or ebay sounds fair.

I still say a general price guide would be helpful in conjunction with the Y!J searches, just in case the pricelist becomes unwieldy to update often.


On the thought of questions on sale threads
People should be able to ask sellers questions within reason but not harass a seller.

While the idea is okay, I think in reality that the effect would be merely to drive people who flip dolls to other venues like ebay...
This is bad how? If someone wants to flip a doll at scalpers rates and they now have to pay fees on the sale or just the listing I see nothing wrong with that. Selling in the marketplace is a privilege that doesn't incur listing fees.

[greeniebone]

I think there is an excess of paranoia in this thread about scalping. If you guys see a scalper selling a doll, just don't buy from them. If someone else chooses to pay an inflated price, what business is it of yours, really?

Cynthia and bunnydots, I totally agree with your point of view!

[Cynthia]

Er. No, I don't see buyers and sellers as separate people. But I do see scalpers as separate from the everyday buyers and sellers. Why do you assume that we see buyers and sellers as separate people when thinking about scalpers? I don't get that.

Our mileage varies--it happens! ;) I *do* get that from this thread; I suspect it isn't what people really mean, but it's what their written words are saying. That's why, even though I didn't intend to post again, I felt that I needed to say something more. I just hope that the whole forum, members and mods alike, will stop and think about the implications of whatever policies and actions they're proposing--that's all.

Looking down the thread . . . sgtgeorgecarter, actually I think we agree pretty well. There *is* a fairly well-known group of people who do indeed scalp, and yes, it's a great idea to establish a marketplace environment from the beginning that won't encourage those particular sellers. But I can't quite let go of my concern that an excess of enthusiasm for stopping that small number of individuals might create some unintended consequences for the everyday buyers and sellers.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

Looking down the thread . . . sgtgeorgecarter, actually I think we agree pretty well. There *is* a fairly well-known group of people who do indeed scalp, and yes, it's a great idea to establish a marketplace environment from the beginning that won't encourage those particular sellers. But I can't quite let go of my concern that an excess of enthusiasm for stopping that small number of individuals might create some unintended consequences for the everyday buyers and sellers.

I understand your concern but I don't think it will be as bad as you fear. Yes I'm sure there will be someone who gets bent out of shape by a price but then when the next person says "Seems fair to me" then I think it will even out. I haven't seen too many cases of regular sellers asking exorbitant prices either. Sure some people try but that too evens out pretty swiftly.

[St. James]

I like the idea of putting the original retail price and notes on availability (rarity) in the wiki. I'm leary of any posting of second hand pricing because some people will treat it as law.
I've seen a number of dolls or heads sell for outrageous prices due to a bidding war between two determined individuals, and I've also seen other sellers come out of the woodwork after that sale with absurd prices on the same doll because suddenly they believe they'll get more cash for it. I once bid a Kian head up to $600 and still lost, but that doesn't mean that the market price stayed that high afterwards, all of the sellers who popped up immediately after couldn't get more than $200 for a Kian after that because it was just a fluke. Same with the $8000 Bermann and the $3000 Juri. The only person willing to pay that price already did. The losers obviously won't go that high.
I personally would love to call a scalper a scalper and be done with it if the whole point is keeping ignorant buyers from getting suckered. I don't see how trying to spread the word about a few particular sellers behind their back is any more or less polite. If questions on pricing were not deleted from sales threads this would serve the same purpose, I suppose.
On the other hand, I never ask for more than original retail for a doll and usually ask less. I try to shop from other people who do the same. Am I willing to pay a little more for something rare? Yes. Have I ever bought something from a scalper because it was the only one available for an entire year? Yes. Do I want to do business with them again? Hell, no! :mad

[CatMoran]

I'm torn on the idea of commenting on pricing in market threads. In general it seems like a reasonable idea as long as people use tact and maturity but then the whole thing is still subjective...what counts as a 'legitimate' reason for a price hike?

It's whatever the potential buyer thinks is reasonable.

I didn't get the impression that any of the folks advocating questioning prices in a sales thread, were suggesting that the question should lead to the thread being shut down. Instead, someone asks, the seller answers, and the buyer decides for herself if they think it's acceptable.

There are times when a person wants something now, and a higher price is worth it to them regardless of the reason.

[bunnydots]

I have to say that the idea of people popping onto a thread and branding other people as scalpers just because they feel a price is unfair makes me very glad I have never sold a doll, and if I ever did have to sell a doll, very loathe to ever sell one on a doll market forum.

[mellie]

I didn't get the impression that any of the folks advocating questioning prices in a sales thread, were suggesting that the question should lead to the thread being shut down. Instead, someone asks, the seller answers, and the buyer decides for herself if they think it's acceptable.

That was precisely my point.

No one's talking about yelling at every seller. There are people who are very obvious about their scalping, and these are the people we're talking about. This is a community, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to look out for other members of the community.

I'll be honest. Those of you who are getting really defensive about the commenting in threads make me wonder if you personally mark up stuff and don't want to be caught yourselves. I'm not saying this is true, mind you, but that's the first thought that popped into my head.

No one is saying they're expecting threads to be shut down or businesses stopped. All people seem to be saying is they would like to have the freedom to comment and open a discussion if they feel it's necessary. A list can't do that. A seller has just as much of a right to defend their price when questioned as a buyer has of questioning it. And not once have I seen anyone say they'd say "you're a scalper" in a thread. Saying "Isn't the price a little high?" is not the same thing as branding someone a scalper.

[Cynthia]

I'll be honest. Those of you who are getting really defensive about the commenting in threads make me wonder if you personally mark up stuff and don't want to be caught yourselves. I'm not saying this is true, mind you, but that's the first thought that popped into my head.



Wow. This is a very effective way of silencing anyone who disagrees with you. In politics, it goes by a number of names: character assassination, mudslinging, smear tactics.

You've just convinced me that I wasn't wrong to feel uneasy about the way this discussion was going--and also that I was stupid to raise any concerns here that went against the majority opinion. I won't make that mistake again.

[bunnydots]

I keep commenting precisely because I have never sold a doll, or anything doll related, or any piece of art at all, or any item on eBay ever, or anything in recent memory. I don't like to sell things. I'd rather trade or just give them away. I did a trade on DoA for a doll body once, I'm trading some hands now, and I ran a group order once that I also participated in. Therefore, I can comment without anyone thinking I personally mark things up because I just don't sell stuff. Sellers obviously have a problem commenting because people think just what mellie said. I'm also not buddies with people who sell things, aside from having some who I like to do repeat business with, so I can pretty much comment with impunity.

I don't feel sellers owe anyone an explanation as to why their price is set where it is. On eBay, people can send a message to a seller and ask about pricing if they so choose. The seller has the option to answer it or ignore it. I also don't feel buyers owe anyone an explanation as to why they would "overpay" for something, or an apology to a community for "driving the market up" for something, or "supporting a scalper" or whatever.

In my mind, business deals are between two people, not one seller and the community. Someone who wants to keep from being fleeced in a collectibles arena, any collectibles arena, is free to ask around and gather information, do some research, and generally educate themselves. They shouldn't need a lot of handholding on a discussion forum.

If someone's selling tactics are that questionable as to require an explanation, they shouldn't be allowed marketplace privileges. Otherwise, if the doll or whatever is overpriced, it just doesn't sell, without anyone having to say anything. I've seen overpriced dolls and heads sit for weeks on end until the price was lowered. In some cases I've waited to buy them till the price was lowered because I didn't think the deal was worth it to me till it came down. Other times I've been happy to pay a high price to get whatever it is immediately.

I have also gotten PMs occasionally from sellers who were literally afraid to list some controversial item in the marketplace for fear of marketplace comments. That kind of atmosphere is unpleasant and unfair. The problem with saying "oh we'll just apply it to known scalpers" is that there seems to be a big problem deciding who is a known scalper and who isn't. One person might consider somebody a scalper, another person does not. Like I said, if a large number of community members don't think that the person's business tactics are kosher, just ban them from the marketplace, and certainly do what you can to educate new people entering the hobby, but don't nit pick individual sales and auctions.

I've said my piece on this so that's it for me and this thread, not in a bad way but I have made all the points I've wanted to make, and don't think saying anything further would be helpful. Your mileages may vary.

[Rhian]

I'll be honest. Those of you who are getting really defensive about the commenting in threads make me wonder if you personally mark up stuff and don't want to be caught yourselves. I'm not saying this is true, mind you, but that's the first thought that popped into my head.
I imagine that some (not all) people are a little worried that when selling a doll with (for example) a $400 markup from the original price -- which could quite easily be what they paid for it -- they'll have the questions about price getting out of hand.

Although I think that being able to openly ask questions in the Marketplace is a fine and good thing, I would never underestimate the mentality of a group of people who (maybe mistakenly, maybe truthfully) think that someone is charging too much for their doll. It could get nasty, and I think it's right to worry about that.

I would like openness and frankness in our Marketplace (and in any marketplace), but I do tend to feel that a public calling-out may not be appropriate in all cases. Unless the markup is really very extreme, I would personally private message a seller to ask my question. (I suppose the danger then is that the question would never be answered, but then I would simply not buy the item.)

And then, as a moderator, I would hate to have to impose a whole set of stipulations on how and when and how often a buyer can publically 'question' a seller! It would be more than a little ridiculous.

This may be callous of me, but I think we all have to take responsibility for our own wallets and not those of anyone else's. If someone really wants to pay the higher price then that's on their head. I'm not sure that this is the general viewpoint, though. :sweat

Cynthia, I hope you'll keep posting to this thread! I'm enjoying all the viewpoints here, and yours in particular. :)

[mellie]

I was just being honest. It's been in my experience that people who get so defensive about -anything- have something to hide. Notice how I said "I'm not saying it's true."

Funny how something like that is forgotten just because I say something that you don't agree with. I was never accusing, just telling you the first thought that popped into my head.

There's a huge difference between expressing an opinion and getting downright defensive. I didn't mention names, and I don't think everyone who's against the commenting is defensive. If I thought so, I would have said "those of you who are against it" not "those of you who are getting really defensive." Take it as you will.

ETA: Though I did not mean to drive people out with my comment. I'm really sorry about that. I honestly wasn't trying to sound mean or offensive. Sorry guys! :cry

[zalem]

It can be tricky. Especially if you have people ganging up in the thread of someone who might have totally legit reasons for a markup. But then usually that person doesn't have a history of selling at what is perceived to be markup. If the person doesn't have a history maybe it's best to leave it up to people to personally contact the seller and question him or her. However, when you know certain sellers have a history of scalping and flipping it's really hard not to call them out on it in the thread. *sighs*

[mellie]

However, when you know certain sellers have a history of scalping and flipping it's really hard not to call them out on it in the thread. *sighs*

I think this is the key thing here. When a "scalper" thread pops up in other places, it's almost always the same people. It's not the every day seller who may be marking something up because they pay for it. It's the ones who quite obviously buy dolls just to flip them and sell them at an inflated price, and do so continually.

[Xi-feng]

Agreeing with what Mellie said - we all know who these people are and we're far more likely to call out them and their ilk should they try things on here. I would be very very surprised if the everyday seller were to be bothered by other members over this sort of thing, but I think there are a fair few of us who'd like the opportunity to be able to ask those well-known individuals just why they feel entitled to inflate their prices so badly right there in their sales-threads, if they ever came over to these forums and tried to prey on the members here.

It's not a matter of buyers attacking random sellers, it's about the community protecting itself against well-known individuals who continue seeking to make an unfair profit off us.

[Lizzard]

I can't speak for the others who have said they would like the freedom to comment in sales threads, but I know the reason I support such an idea is that often, as a buyer, I really want to know what's going on before committing to buy. On forums where questions about prices aren't allowed, that can never happen. If I post a question like, "Is there a reason your item is going for so much more than the same item on this web site?" it will get deleted because it's "price policing," and if I send it in a PM it's considered harassment! I just want to know if there's something that's special about the item that I've missed, and I don't think that's an inappropriate question to ask.

As a seller of numerous expensive items in the past, including an entire doll, I can state that I would honestly have no problem with a politely stated question about pricing. Moreover, I would prefer to have the chance to respond to any concerns people might have in public, to help avoid rumors.

YMMV, of course.

[Shankula]

I'm sure that I'll get fwapped with a ruler, but I think price policing plays into the whiny "but why can't *I* have it, if it was FAIR I could afford it!" mindset, when in fact the market will bear what it will bear. In my opinion, if someone is trying to scalp, the best 'policing' would be self policing--not allowing yourself to buy into it and support it by purchasing it, thus reinforcing the scalper's behavior by giving in to their demands.

It's easy...you don't like the price, DON'T BUY IT. They don't sell it, they'll lower the price. End of story. I think the reason that this subject gets to me is that some people are total entitlement whores (not you guys, just immature people in another marketplace) who think that because they 'want the doll more than anyone else does', it means they *deserve* to get it, and get it cheap. And no, I'm not a scalper, I usually start my items at a little under what I paid and let it get bid up fairly...or else I offer them at what I paid (plus faceup) and lower it if needed. I don't mind doing that though, because as I said at the very beginning--the market dictates prices. Okay, promise to pad the sticks before beating me with them.

[Rhian]

Okay, promise to pad the sticks before beating me with them.
*wraps stick in cotton wool* ;)

Thinking on this some more, I do think the buyer has a right to ask (as long as it's polite, and that goes for the seller too!). This is not a shopping site, it's a forum, and forums are for discussing. Telling people they're not allowed to question or discuss is really counter-productive and frustrating for all concerned.

I do agree, Shankula, that people should vote with their wallets... but sometimes the markup is so excessive that the questions need to be asked. If we don't allow questioning, if we completely prevent people from asking questions for the sake of the rest of the community (as well as for themselves), how can we claim to be a true community?

[Tez]

The one time I've direly wanted to ask a seller a question in their thread was when they wrote in their sales post "I have my own reasons for her price." Now mind you, I had no idea how much this doll was worth, but that set off some huge alarms and I would have loved to have asked just what those 'reasons' were.

I will say I like the idea of something that gives a doll's original retail and a range for their current after-market value, purely because I'm curious.

[Shankula]

*wraps stick in cotton wool* ;)

Thinking on this some more, I do think the buyer has a right to ask (as long as it's polite, and that goes for the seller too!). This is not a shopping site, it's a forum, and forums are for discussing. Telling people they're not allowed to question or discuss is really counter-productive and frustrating for all concerned.

I do agree, Shankula, that people should vote with their wallets... but sometimes the markup is so excessive that the questions need to be asked. If we don't allow questioning, if we completely prevent people from asking questions for the sake of the rest of the community (as well as for themselves), how can we claim to be a true community?

Actually, I do agree with you that people should be able to ask--my issue is with the possibility of there being rules administered, pricing guidelines given by people in charge...I think this is something that is best regulated by the posters themselves, not something that admin should bother themselves with-I'm SURE that if the need to go barracuda truly arises (my name IS shankula for a reason) then we can pull together and do it ourselves. I just don't like the idea of it being an officially 'thou must nottest markest up thine doll for profiteth' type of thing...you know what I mean? I'm not the best at getting my points together sometimes, so thanks for posting and helping me to get my words together more cohesively, hehehehehe...

[zalem]

I don't see actual formal rules being put in place. The mods are probably busy enough and they don't need to deal with that kind of stuff. It's too much involvement. Leave it to the community to ask the questions (politely though). That's probably the best thing.

[Shankula]

I don't see actual formal rules being put in place. The mods are probably busy enough and they don't need to deal with that kind of stuff. It's too much involvement. Leave it to the community to ask the questions (politely though). That's probably the best thing.

Well now I feel like a giant retard, the way I read it in a few posts was that that should be a possible option, like making rules that you can't mark things up a certain amount. Wank away people, I deserve it! :oops

[zalem]

No, I think some people did actually mention doing that. But I totally agree with you. I don't think it's a good idea at all.

[girlwholived]

I agree that scalping and flipping is horrible. I'd like to see policing, but that will be hard.

For example, one of the dolls I bought was purchased at market value. If I were to resell her, I'd have to sell her at the price I paid. The person I bought her from paid the price I paid.

I would rather hold onto the doll rather then sell her at her original price, or even just a hundred dollars above her original value.

[ginarolo]

I think price policing is a bad idea. It brings out the witch hunt mentality. I hate seeing that happen in a close knit doll community. I would rather see no marketplace...than a vigilante attitude happen here.

Who would polices the police?

[Kathooloo]

I was just thinking about this the other day! I think it would be good to have more of a guideline for prices, because some people do buy things for way more, and then need to sell them and would like to get their money back.

I have no idea how to go about this, seeing as it might be seen as stepping on other people's feet, but I think with this kind of community, it is a good idea. We have so many people coming in, and just selling dolls for insane amounts over the price that it was sold at retail, and I don't think that is fair for anyone.

[Bel]

I'm not happy about scalping, flipping, or price-policing, but I agree that the prices are what the market will bear.

One problem I have is that sales threads in other forums are deleted when the transaction is done, so I have no idea what the market value of a certain doll is. I have a feeling that I overpaid for a head last year, which was fine, because I wanted it - but was that feeling because the head was unusually expensive for me (it was a Volks head and I'm used to $100 heads) or because I DID overpay?

I just resold it, and my initial sales prices was $100 less than I'd spent on it (if I did overpay, no sense penalizing his next owner with my mistake for the sake of "getting my money back.") And I still ended up lowering the price further for my buyer. I'm comfortable with the transaction, which is all that matters - but still, it's a bummer that we don't have an up-to-date general market value resource. I know that mods, faceups, availability, general attractiveness (or damage), etc, change the value, but winging it is nerve-wracking sometimes.

Not to mention, I'd have felt horrible if someone had accused me of scalping or overpricing the head, and that's the sort of accusation that sticks with a seller.

[zalem]

I think a buyer should have the right to at least question the seller politely. If not in the thread, then in a PM. A buyer has the right to want to be fully informed about what they are buying. Of course, rudeness or harassment shouldn't be allowed but if everything is civil I don't see a problem with it.

[fullcircleagain]

I've been collecting for around 25 years. That is 25 years of buying items direct from manufacturers and also second-hand.

I'd say I've been buying and selling on the internet for the last 10. Selling items from time to time at physical locations for maybe 20 years? Maybe longer since I use to help my mom sell her hand-made collector teddy bears since sheesh, I don't remember.

I say this for two reasons. One, to state that I am both a buyer and a seller. Secondly, never in my whole life have I ever seen the onus be placed on the seller to explain why an item had a particular price.

One of the challenges and thrills of collecting is learning as much as you can about what you collect. That includes the value of an item. I never in my lifetime went up to any seller and questioned them on the price of something or accused them of marking up something higher than I thought it was worth. Or told them that they should be selling their item at a specific price. Nor have I ever seen anyone do that, or have had that happen to me, until I got involved with ABJDS.

I will say again, if there is a seller that is questionable, then it would be best if the mods could handle the situtation. It is their board. To allow anyone who wanted to to police sellers, even under the guise of asking why an item was the price it was, well, who wants to sell anything if all your time is spent having to explain and risk get slammed if someone just didn't like the price you were selling something for?

Seriously, it is an acceptable practice to ask a seller privately if they might take a lower price on an item. So then, if something is interested in an item, but feels the price is higher than usual, they can always ask the seller privately. To allow people to confront sellers in public is only going to end up with fingers getting pointed and it will happen where someone may feel it's their duty to go through the sales threads and post when they have no desire to actually buy the item.

Once again I will say it. 25 years of experience, whenever I thought an item was higher than what I'd seen but I was interested, I would privately ask the seller if they would take a lower price. Or I would just not buy.

This is a market place we are talking about. Not just a forum. Maybe the better idea is not to have a market place at all if there is going to be this much dissension.

[Mich]

I honestly don't see what is wrong with a database somewhere on this forum with Original and second hand prices, so people can check with them if they want.( This also goes for sellers who might have had a doll a while, and aren't sure of a price to ask for, so it works both ways, and this hasn't even been mentioned yet). Then that would also keep any bad feeling from an actual sales thread, and no Policing would take place as such, then sellers could put whatever price they wanted to on an item, and buyers could choose to buy or not. Then everyone would be happy.

[Hitasura]

I just want to say thank you all for you excellent input! You've definitely given us plenty of food for thought to mull over, and we do appreciate it quite a bit! ^^

I do want to add that we most certainly will not be making any attempts to tell sellers what prices they can and can't sell their items for. That is something we all feel very strongly against doing, as it's neither our place nor decision to make. So there's no need to worry over that point! ^_^

Thanks again, and keep it coming! :D

[brighnasa]

I don't think there is any need for price policing. Like a lot of other people have already said, if I don't want to pay a certain price, for whatever reason, I don't buy it.

I would never personally question a seller's price either. Hearing the seller's reason for why something is so expensive wouldn't sway me at all. It doesn't matter to me if the seller bought it off Y!J and it cost them 3k and they'd like to recoup their money. Or that they've had a personal tragedy and really need the money. It just wouldn't effect me.

[Azurielle]

While I don't agree with scalping, I definetly disagree with any sort of price policing. As others have said, every seller has their reasons for the prices they set. I have bought items for more than their original costs, and less. I have sold items at a profit, and a loss. That's business. Dictating prices is a bad idea all around. If you don't want to pay the price either pm the seller and ask if they will accept another price, or don't buy it. If things I have for sale don't sell, I lower the price.

[kersuru]

There really needs to be a price database. I was thinking of getting a Volks head that's going between $450-$600US and when I was talking to my BJD friend she said that $450 was not a deal, he could be found for way cheaper but I never came across sold sales.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a list of the doll's original price and the going rate prices.

Like everyone else, I don't like seeing flipping or scalping. No one wants to see another flip this dollfie show on TLC. :p
But since this forum is 18+, members are not children, they are smart enough to notice a flip or scalp. And if buyers are hesitant of a price or an item it should be incouraged to ask the seller questions.

Then again, I personally think an item is worth what ever a buyer is willing to pay. It's up to the buyer's discretion.

[CatMoran]

Like Lizzard, I just want to retain the right to ask a seller why a price is higher than normal, at least in a PM. Sometimes prices are higher than normal for a very good reason, but it's not obvious and the seller doesn't think to mention it. Maybe the seller is basing their price on a previous sale, not realizing that there was something unusual about that item that theirs doesn't share.

And sometimes I'm just curious. :)

[Tiarah]

I agree with Azurielle. I buy, make, and sell things a lot, and sometimes I make profit, sometimes I break even, and sometimes I lose money. But having someone dictate what my prices should be would be a bit frustrating.

[celestia]

I think a range would be great for FS type threads; and lifted when making auction threads.
The reason for this would be to purposely to hinder any possible scalpers from hanging around the market in the near future.
There is always DoA; that way if you get a better price during the active thread, you can always pm to negotiate separately between buyers.

With no price policing you're going to see their threads being bumped up constantly (since "you aren't the price police" you have no right to tell the reason the doll isn't selling is because its too high ::cough ;:.) I find it annoying seeing a doll being bumped so repeatedly with no one being able to explain to them why it's not selling.

Personally, i'm not a fan of seeing all the limited dolls getting released and sold so quicklyas though they were purposely *just* to resell for a higher price. I can accept that some people might need to buy a doll this way because at least it's made available to them; but ouch. It's like .. a customs fee without the customs!

[miss sha]

I think people are really having a knee-jerk reaction to the phrase 'price policing.' We aren't suggesting a guerilla-style lock down of the marketplace, where every seller must live in fear of having a finger pointed over them for pricing a item $10 above what they paid. This isn't to crush people who bought an expensive limited off of YJ ages ago and are selling it back for what they paid. It's to finally be able to say something about the people who are KNOWN for flipping and scalping, who are obviously jacking up prices immediately after events to turn a tremendous profit. It's to try and prevent situations where one overzealous bidder drives the price of an item way up, and everyone else with that item thinks they get the same price for it, unnaturally affecting the market. It's not as though one polite inquiry in your thread is going to spread throughout the community like wildfire and your reputation will be tarnished forever.

The mods have already stated that they have no plans to impose regulations and caps on how high items can be sold. All we really want is to be able to ask, politely, reasonably, civilly, and not have those questions be against the rules.

[celestia]

I don't think it's a knee-jerk reaction. I think the meaning of policing (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/policing) probably relates to why so many people feel that it is going to be run rather strictly. (my perspectives only)
Price inquiring would better suit it better perhaps? Because policing is just that; policing.

I guess a lot of people are more so afraid of putting their items up for fear they might seem like a scalper; people can act really differently to things others might not.
I also think politeness can be hard to detect if a person reads it the wrong way; no matter how good the intentions are supposed to sound.



I mean personally while i know what they intended for price policing;

[Rhian]

While I don't agree with scalping, I definetly disagree with any sort of price policing. As others have said, every seller has their reasons for the prices they set. I have bought items for more than their original costs, and less. I have sold items at a profit, and a loss. That's business. Dictating prices is a bad idea all around.
One thing I can assure you of is that the moderators won't be enforcing any sort of price guidelines or stipulations at all. That is absolutely the last thing we want!

I think that as celestia and miss sha say, it's not so much about actual policing here as about the right to inquire. I'm not sure myself if it's more appropriate to PM a seller or to post in a thread about the price. In 99% of cases I would say the former, but if a seller is offering items with a $1000 markup (and is well-known for doing this) then isn't it in the interests of the community to publically question the price, and ask why the markup is so great?

As a moderator I can't say "you can only post a price-related question to a seller's thread if the markup is $x" - so when it comes to a rule or guideline about such questions the rule must be broad, fair, and inclusive... and ideally should not encourage harrassment of a Market user. (This sort of rule is, as I'm sure you can imagine, hard to make!)

[bunnydots]

I think that as celestia and miss sha say, it's not so much about actual policing here as about the right to inquire. I'm not sure myself if it's more appropriate to PM a seller or to post in a thread about the price. In 99% of cases I would say the former, but if a seller is offering items with a $1000 markup (and is well-known for doing this) then isn't it in the interests of the community to publically question the price, and ask why the markup is so great?


I would say if it's someone that blatant who's already well-known for doing this, and it's objectionable, just don't let them come into the Marketplace to begin with. Then you don't have to worry about fashioning a rule that will also fit the 90% of reasonably normal sellers.

(this is a repeat of my comment in the other thread)

[mellie]

But people use different usernames if they know they're going to be looked at based on their behavior on another forum.

This is why I said that to me, "price policing" means telling someone what they have to sell their doll at, not inquiring about the price. So many people are having that knee-jerk reaction to the term. We're not out to tell people what they can and cannot sell for. We're not even out to try to ruin people's chances of selling something.

If someone's going to buy the doll, they're going to buy it. Some of you are saying that it won't matter what reason the seller gives, or that if you really want it, you'll buy it. So buy it. Whatever. But just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone doesn't care.

There are people who constantly sell "for friends." or to take care of a "sick" animal or relative. The last one worries me sometimes because there are cases where the person is blatantly lying to gain sympathy so someone would buy a doll. It wouldn't hurt to inquire if it's a person who has used the tactic before: they say their dog died, but then magically that dog is alive and sick again when they're selling another doll a month later. (Just as an example.)

We want to be able to trust people in the community, but considering all of the scams and scalping and flipping that's been going on, it's hard to trust everyone.

[Rhian]

I would say if it's someone that blatant who's already well-known for doing this, and it's objectionable, just don't let them come into the Marketplace to begin with. Then you don't have to worry about fashioning a rule that will also fit the 90% of reasonably normal sellers.
I absolutely see your point here, but at what point do we start preventing people from using the Market? When they've sold two items with a $1000 markup each? Five at a $600 markup each? If someone does it once, does that mean we should consider them a potential 'danger' to the Market and prevent them from selling here too? It's hard to draw a clear and definitive line. And even apart from that: by removing people who sell at a large markup, we are in essence policing the prices, which, from the posts in this thread so far, is exactly the opposite of what people want.

We can't simply say "People who sell with excessive price markups aren't allowed in our Market area" - that's vague, unhelpful, and would also worry potential sellers. What constitutes 'excessive'? We'd have to be explicit at some point, and if we then said (for example) "Okay, a $1000 markup is too much" then that would exempt anyone selling with a $900 markup, which could be considered as just as bad. I don't want to have to personally pass judgment on every high-price seller, and I'm sure none of the other moderators do either.

With regard to flipping, we've tried to make that instantaneous sort of 'flip' more difficult by only allowing people to sell items in hand. It won't prevent it completely but it's a step towards marketplace safety... and I think that safety is paramount, even above what people decide to charge for a doll.

I don't mean to trample on your idea, and I hope that explaining it from the point of view of a moderator (who has to turn an idea into a definitive rule or guideline) is helpful.

(edit: I saw your post in the other thread - by all means, we'll prevent known scammers from using the Market. That sort of thing really is unacceptable!)

[bunnydots]

I appreciate your addressing my idea, and I don't mind if you disagree with it (no one ever died from polite disagreement :) Without getting too much into my background, I've done a lot of scholarly research into safe online marketplaces (primarily eBay) and been published in a scholarly journal on the subject, trying to get published again, so I find all this back-and-forth interesting in a detached sort of way. The one conclusion that keeps coming up from my past papers is that while feedback and other forms of "online reputation" are helpful in promoting trust between buyers and sellers, and thus encourages people to buy and sell because they feel more confident about dealing with each other, it's kind of a false sense of security for various reasons. A main reason it's a false sense of security is that people don't like to leave negatives, they don't want to get all the drama and get a negative back. Another reason is that there are many cases of people with pretty good feedback who then turn around and out of the blue pull some really awful stuff. I bought from at least two people on another forum who were like that. They both had good feedback. My transactions in both cases were fine - luck of the draw. It was somebody else who ended up getting big time burned and caused the person to get banned or reprimanded.

So I think if you really want to have a safer marketplace than, say, eBay, you'd really have to go a step beyond just good feedback, and do more vetting of people who want to sell. I can understand not wanting to get involved in that, as moderators, but that's the only way based on the research I've done. One way that people get that extra level of safety on eBay or other online markets is to buy only from bonded sellers, or those offering some kind of a warranty. So the bond or warranty place is essentially offering that type of "seller vetting".

*back to lurk mode*

[celestia]

but with ebay you can still get them to lift the negative if the feedback was just for the sake of that (aka you give me bad feedback i give you bad feedback in return).

I think the things that concerns me in ebay the most .. well 2.

2.) People who don't actually buy your item giving you feedback
I apparently bought a 1k watch from someone; checked all my records to no avail. Yet i had this feedback... good positive feedback!
I emailed ebay and they said there was nothing wrong so they couldn't do anything.
I think it was like..2-3 years ago that it happened.. it may have since been wiped after those years.

2.) %percentage. 99.98 is obtainable with shops that have like 20000 customers.
So if a review is really really bad; the chances anyone is going to care are somewhat slim. I remember seeing feedback have a trail of negatives.. and people still kept buying. It was like... history? learning? where?

[bunnydots]

but with ebay you can still get them to lift the negative if the feedback was just for the sake of that (aka you give me bad feedback i give you bad feedback in return).

you can now, but for many years you couldn't - they wouldn't do anything.
And I understand even now it's not an easy process to get it removed.
It's easier if the buyer and seller mutually agree to withdraw the feedback.

The other problems with feedback you noted are still there too.
As for people who still buy despite bad feedback, sometimes if the item is really cheap I'll do that, because I figure if I don't get whatever it is, then I'm only out five dollars or whatever. I've been pretty lucky so far.

[celestia]

If ebay cannot contact the person who placed the unnec. feedback, ebay will still remove it.

The last time i dealt with ebay was around 2005-2006.. and i remember it being around a little before that too. So it hasn't just been 'now' that they've implemented it.


What i do is pay by credit card. If the item isn't there i lodge a paypal complaint within 20 days.. and in those extra 25 days if paypal cannot/won't do anything, i get the credit card company to reverse it and so that paypal WILL have to do something.

Although to be honest ..this happened to me once. And only once. It wasn't even from ebay... it was from the MSI website. I suspect the customs probably got hold of it though, because the text was rather vulgar. But either way, the guy emailing me said he sent out a second and never replied after that (it had been 4 months after).

Back then the AUD dollar was really weak too, so everything ended up costing almost twice as much as the USD. '

But yes, the reason i noted those two was because the problems were still there :p
Then is also not ebay.. so members have the ability to completely review people who sell. Anyone scalping who has the right to publicly call them out for it; will allow other members to shy away. Unlike ebay where you see a person's ID and go

"omg... noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... that doll was so undervalued and at BIN.. whyyy so naiveeee QQ !?1"

A little extreme... but it's happened to a few of us i'm sure.

[saranilla]

I just think price policing isn't going to work. Scalpers will always exist. How many times have you seen someone saying they bought a limited on YJ for an unbelievable amount of money and now they are trying to sell it. Most take a large loss. There is no way I know of to keep this from happening. Even a current marketplace value is filled with flaws. I buy and sell on Ebay a lot and it is amazing how the time of year can affect how well an item sells. More people must learn to let these dolls go when they are a buy it now, eventually the seller gives up and keeps the doll or relists at a more reasonable.

If you watch the Ebay sales now, most limiteds don't bring what they are worth originally, or people do not even bid on them. In fact Ebay encourages you to be a savvy buyer and check closed auctions to see the true value.

There is that one seller from Japan who regularly puts their limiteds up and I rarely see anyone purchase them, even when they offer a layaway. The only one I have seen sell is when the price was marked to a more reasonable amount.

Just my $.02

[bunnydots]

If ebay cannot contact the person who placed the unnec. feedback, ebay will still remove it.

The last time i dealt with ebay was around 2005-2006.. and i remember it being around a little before that too. So it hasn't just been 'now' that they've implemented it.

But yes, the reason i noted those two was because the problems were still there :p
Then is also not ebay.. so members have the ability to completely review people who sell. Anyone scalping who has the right to publicly call them out for it; will allow other members to shy away. Unlike ebay where you see a person's ID and go

"omg... noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... that doll was so undervalued and at BIN.. whyyy so naiveeee QQ !?1"

A little extreme... but it's happened to a few of us i'm sure.

2004, 05, 06 are relatively recent considering that eBay has been around since 1996 or 1997. I started using it in 1997 and as late as 2003 or 2004 you still couldn't get feedback removed, even if the other person who left it got kicked off eBay for being a bad user. I know this because I have exactly one neg feedback out of 1200+ that isn't going away even though the guy who left it was kicked off eBay the following week due to ticking off a bunch of his customers. Even now, feedback removal is something that eBay doesn't like to do, for the obvious reason that they don't want to get into the business of monitoring transactions. They have a rules page up now
http://pages.ebay.com/help/feedback/questions/feedback-removal.html
that basically explains they will only remove it in limited situations. You also have to contact them about it and sometimes they aren't super-responsive, it really depends on what the whole situation is, who you get hold of, did you file the appropriate Paypal claims and so forth. So while things might have worked out well for you, a lot of the time people either don't want to go through the process or end up not being able to get it removed.

Edited to add, I also just noticed you appear to be in Australia. It's entirely possible eBay handles feedback differently on the foreign sites, because one reason they don't want to remove it in the US is to avoid risk of service provider liability under US law. I haven't looked into the situation for eBay in other countries and it may even be the laws there encourage rather than discourage them to help people out the way you mentioned.

The whole issue of calling out sellers in the forum just boils down to whether known questionable sellers should even be allowed to come on, post a thread, get called out and then leave, or should they not even come on and post the thread at all in the first place. I guess the good thing about this thread is hopefully if they do join, they'll read this thread and realize that objectionable tactics are not welcome.

[mk13]

Price policing would be hard to do I think, it's such a subjective thing.
What I would like to see perhaps is a list of dolls with their selling value and the date of that sale, like a history of past transactions. Though this would be very hard to maintain and I can't think of an efficient way to do it. It would be hard to decide what to include too, would you include sold dolls through other website say, Ebay, Y!J or DOA? Having the ability to search through sold items to see their price would help too but that would eventually take up alot of space ^^;
Perhaps giving easily accesible links to doll sale searches on a variaty of websites is the easiest. Then the buyer can make up their own mind.

[celestia]

^ ^
I still don't think "now" is considered "recent", but i suppose that's a subjective thing; which is why the "now" was in quotations. i was being more specific compared to the ambiguous timeframe. I know what you mean though.
I started using ebay when around late 2002.
In terms of technology/cyber thingies developing, i would say 2005 would still not fall in the "now" category because of how much things change and how fast things develop between those two years... it wasn't to say i was catching you out on anything. Apologies if you felt that way.

If a person was a bad user and got banned, users most probably were smart enough to research would most likely understand the situation of the negative feedback anyway and ignore it. And it shows; most people still purchase from those with negative feedback which so inconsistencies every now and then.
- I'm not talking about people with over 2000 feedback; some people do not have the time of course, but i suppose that goes into buyer beware.

I've had several transactions go wrong that i couldn't mutually withdraw. But it was because i thought people with brains would most likely read my feedback and not consider me a horrible dealer. And if not, then...i'll live.

Paypal for me was much worse in comparison.. i had to fax details and proof of my account to change my name. It was horrible. I started on paypal using my father's name and my mother's card. now the card is under my name.. but the paypal name never matches. I tried to change it; the process was so overwhelming .. i just gave up. So in a sense it doesn't help a whole lot trying to do the right thing either.

Being in Australia makes dealing with the internet a lot.. limited. That's all i can remember.

The problem i'm more mildly concerned with is how do you track down the people we don't want.. to ban them before they can commit and offense. IP trailing//matching from DoA ?-not really sure about how that works. I do think there is a level of apprehension in dealing in the marketplace to a degree because those members might not be blocked here. Of course maybe it gives them a chance to turn over a new leaf?

[kirane]

I agree that asking freely how and why some prices are so high would refrain scalpers of any sort, as well as help the buyers understand a price. However it's hard to define where is the limit. I like dolls that happen to be LE and pricey due to the demand. For example, for my Anais, I gave up and was ready to pay really high for her. And someone offered a head for what I call a decent price, because she really needed to sell... Which made me wonder... Some people need to sell so they sell 'cheap', others aren't necessarily scalpers but they have items that can go high (I would understand - I've sold unoa items with a bonus after I realized I wouldn't have a body before long) and others again only buy to sell at a higher price. Setting prices instead of the sellers would ignore tons of possible reasons and feelings.

I think having a price guide is a good idea. People who are looking for a doll for a long time might not be interested, they know already and it's their choice to accept an offer or not. But for a recent hobbyist who discovers - say, Jun Tachibana - a guide could be both a warning and an insurance. He could see that a doll is definitively too expensive, or that it's a rather normal price. Then again, he would decide if it sounds fair for him or not. (I've understood that I will never get a Jun below $1000 - it sucks but I'll deal with it)

[Lolly]

I think the best price policing comes from common sense. If a seller can get the high price they are asking, then the buyers are the ones setting the prices. STOP paying too much! Be patient.

[Bel]

STOP paying too much! Be patient.

Amen, amen, amen.

(Random: my red flags catch fire when I hear someone considering a new doll call it "an investment.")

[eveshka]

The flip side to that is a seller who has something listed for way too much and bumps it for a month or longer, never stopping to wonder why people aren't buying. :|

[kirane]

Yup, and sometimes I'm patiently waiting for the price reduction (fufufu).

[TammyTammy]

I strongly disagree with "price policing"! Though this is a private forum, it's still a free country and people should be allowed to put whatever price they want on something they own. Just like people should have the free will not to buy these items. :)

[zalem]

But a buyer equally has the right to question a price. They have the right to be fully informed. So while I disagree with any formal board rules policing prices, I do think buyers should be able to politely question those prices.

[Tez]

But a buyer equally has the right to question a price. They have the right to be fully informed. So while I disagree with any formal board rules policing prices, I do think buyers should be able to politely question those prices.
IAWTC. Formal price policing would be a big fat can of worms, I think, and really hard to institute. However, I would very much like the right to question any price that I feel is substantially off the mark.

[Bel]

Well, again, people listing for "way too much" don't have many reference points, which is why I support including original sales prices in the Wiki or something.

I just sold an old F-29 head for almost $200 less than what I paid for him (and am very happy with the sale - I probably overpaid when I bought him) but old F-29s are tough to find pricing references on, and their current value has been further influenced by the F-17 now being available as an FCS in the USA.

I'd have been totally blindsided if I'd been attacked in my sales thread for overpricing him, rather than approached with questions or asked what made me choose his price. If someone had said "Yanno, F-29s go for about $100 these days, here are links to closed auctions," I'd have been grateful for the info and changed the price (ok, haha, if it was down to $100 I'd have just kept him.)

Edited to clarify: there's a difference, to me, between "policing" and "communicating."

[Lady Brick]

but with ebay you can still get them to lift the negative if the feedback was just for the sake of that (aka you give me bad feedback i give you bad feedback in return).

A bit off topic, but since when can you do that? Did they recently change the rules?

[V chan]

I like the idea of price policing. If said seller is putting a 300 price tag on a non-limited item such as an EL head I would have to know what's so special about it.I think newer people to the hobby may not know and need guidance. I guess it bothers me more so because you are making profit and the company is not. If you buy something directly from the company and then mark it up 300 to sell it that's wrong to me. What 300 extra work did you do to justify that. It also irks me when sellers try to get the limited price on a modded limited doll.

[Guide]

I strongly disagree with "price policing"! Though this is a private forum, it's still a free country and people should be allowed to put whatever price they want on something they own. Just like people should have the free will not to buy these items. :)

I agree. But people should be free to ask why those items are priced so highly. Who knows? In some cases, there might actually be a very good reason. In others.... maybe not. ;) And those answers will help people tell the scammers from the honest sellers.

And hey, no-one says anyone has to answer any questions put to them, right?

[Bel]

I think I'm having a personal problem with semantics. To me, the term "price policing" suggests completely shutting down or banning sales that are deemed overpriced.

But I DO 100% agree that we should all be free and encouraged to ask each other questions about why a seller's chosen a particular price/valued their item at that price. But that doesn't strike me as "policing," just... being normal people asking questions while considering a transaction.

[celestia]

A bit off topic, but since when can you do that? Did they recently change the rules?

I haven't actually been back since 2005/6 so i dont know if they toggled back and forth with this one recently.

Some people were having difficulty contacting members who left negative feedback.. so if you informed eBay about this, and the other member did not correspond or reply within an amount of given days; eBay would lift the negative . I read about it under a response to an email i sent eBay in 2005. My entire hotmail inbox perished magically though, a month or two ago. I've lost everything from 2002 that i saved.. 1gig my bumhole... you could always ask ebay for an update? I dont think it was just limited to eBay Australia.

[mellie]

I think I'm having a personal problem with semantics. To me, the term "price policing" suggests completely shutting down or banning sales that are deemed overpriced.

That's how I feel. Glad to know I'm not alone. :lol

[Tsuminaki]

I think price policing is an okay idea in theory, but would depend on a market absolutely full of people dedicated to fair trade, without individuals trying to get around it or use it for their own personal gain. Thus, it's probably not possible with this market, so I couldn't condone a micromanaging price police policy here. However!

A much simpler solution, or aid at least - I don't see a sound reason why a seller can't publicly provide information about what's for sale when asked, even if it's by people who aren't prospective buyers. - it can be as innocuous as "how much did this cost originally?" Whether the seller is charging a fair amount, overcharging from ignorance, compensating for being overcharged himself, "adjusting to the market" or just scalping, he should be able to admit his thought process; even in such case he can still answer however he chooses. Whereas with the "all inquiries involving price = price policing = bad" mentality, nothing is gained but a perceived sense of freedom of sale/speech/marketing based on theory rather than reality. The seller is not hurt by answering a question, unless his selling practice really was unsavory and the question calls him out. If that's not the case there's no real reason for embarrassment. But a buyer can certainly be hurt when a stifled question leads to lack of information necessary to make an informed decision.

Sellers seem vocal enough about their opinions re: changing prices in debate threads; it is to be hoped that they could back those up in their own sales threads. Forum participants should be expected to act in a mature fashion - which is a whole thread unto itself as to what that means to everyone, but at the very least "charge what you will, but everyone presents what accurate info they can, either on their own or when asked, and restrain themselves from blowing up about stuff, on either side, till they have all the info they need."

So in the spirit of sharing accurate info, I'd get behind a general pricing guide for specific things like types of dolls (with the original prices put in with certainty BEFORE speculative market value). Posters can read up or not, and equip themselves or not. But in conjunction with that I'd strike down the taboo against inquiring, politely but publicly, as to why a seller is charging far more than a generally accepted price, if he is. I would keep a strong emphasis on inquiry, though, rather than "this is too high" right off the bat, before hearing a seller's reasons, because even if the reasons are legit, newbies will be influenced by assertions in people's threads even if they're not shared by everyone.

I've already seen lots of similar points of view on the subject. Cool. Now to finish up reading!

Later edit: Ah hah, so it looks like the question has moved on down to public vs. private disclosure. I would stand by freedom to choose either because restricting inquiries to PMs wouldn't work. People are not forced to be scrupulous because their discussions are put on display, but they are at least responsible for their own carriage in public, whereas in the private sphere it's a burden on the original inquirer and no one else if the answer is unsatisfactory. A seller in a PM saying "I'm charging that much because I want to make lots of money off emotionally charged suckers like you" gets no comeuppance unless the inquirer is especially vigilant (and often those people tend to be *too* vigilant). If the seller was to say it in his own sales thread, buyers at least get the opportunity to discern worth for themselves.
Obviously that's far reaching. I just think it's sad to have an 18+ forum and admit defeat right in the beginnings of that forum, saying "yeah, I know, people are going to be babies and jackasses no matter what we do." I'm a member of at least one (non-doll-related) forum where it's really not the case. It's silly to compare forums so I won't say any more than people who do stupid things get caught out doing them, in most cases they realize it even looking at their own responses, and then they cease doing them (or keep doing them, but generally the forum doesn't have patience for them). The word is "if you assert something, back it up", there's no halting "you suck, go away and don't complain", and the atmosphere is wonderful for it.

It does require a measure of honesty from everyone, though.

[Wickedgood]

I don't mind 'high' prices, per say. I mean, if an item is for sale a lot higher than it can be purchased on the official website (and is not LE or sold out or anything) it is kind of annoying - and I wonder if the seller will eventually drop the price to real-market value or if some unsuspecting newb will buy it. Prolly 50/50 chance of one or the other /shrug. I think it's expected that LE items will be marked up at least a little bit, since they can no longer be found anywhere else but the secondary market.

What bothers me is the idea that someone could buy items off of Y!J for relatively decent prices and then turn around and GREATLY increase the price to a member here. Either taking advantage of the fact that many people are wary of using a buyer service or are just ignorant that there is such a thing. Of course, I think this practice is found a lot more on ebay - but I'd like to think that if someone was blatantly and obviously doing Y!J to Resinality flips that they would be warned/banned.

[Bel]

It just feels to me like we're talking in circles.

I've overpaid. I considered it a "stupid tax" when it was a mistake, and an "impatience tax" when it was on purpose (my Unoa kit, bought for $100 more than presale kit price a few months ago because I couldn't stand it any more.)

1. I do not think that people should pass these "taxes" (it's a joke, a joke!) on to other people
2. If I bought a Bermann for $4k and a year from now, he was magically standard, I would not expect to get anything more than - if even! - his standard price (see "impatience tax" above) *eta - not selling my Bermann, didn't buy him in order to sell him.*
3. You can increase the price all day long, but the buyer PAYS it. By choice. Yeah, sure, there have been a half dozen dolls that I wanted the hell out of, but I thought the seller was overpricing (and when contacted about a more reasonable price, was crappy. So someone ELSE paid the ridiculous price and got the doll, and I got no doll but am okay with it. And the buyer, who paid the price, is probably also okay with it.)

I think that if there's any question about price, Ebay is the way to go. NOT forum auctions, because I don't trust them. Then buyers will set the value - what it's worth to the high bidder, though, not what it should be worth to the market as a whole. Sale should not equal precedent/base starting price.

[Rhian]

As per my suggestion here (http://www.abjds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4512&postcount=41), I am in the process of making a Price Index for all dolls bought on the secondary market. I hope to have it finished very soon and will make an announcement when it's all done. I've also added a "Original prices for all dolls" page to my to-do list for the wiki.

We mods are still hashing out our 'formal' stance on price-policing and price-questioning, but you may all rest assured that no one is going to be dictating what prices sellers set, and that we would like to allow buyers to question sellers in some (polite) form.

[Rhian]

As per my suggestion here (http://www.abjds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4512&postcount=41), I am in the process of making a Price Index for all dolls bought on the secondary market. I hope to have it finished very soon and will make an announcement when it's all done. I've also added a "Original prices for all dolls" page to my to-do list for the wiki.
Just wanted to update in-thread: the Price Index (http://abjds.com/priceindex/) is up! Discussion thread is here (http://www.abjds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746). It needs your feedback so please have a go at submitting a doll and let us know what you think of the system! :D

[nohbahdee]

As far as price policing...I'm not sure if this has been said in the past 7 pages (odds are it has, but I'll go ahead and say it again just for kicks)

It WOULD be nice to have some kind of price ceiling on limited releases for the people who bought a doll at an inflated price, only to have to head re-released at a later date for half what they paid for it.

[Rhian]

(Just noting that I have moved the posts relating to the Price Index to the discussion thread (http://www.abjds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746), so as to keep this one on-topic! :))

[elfinder]

Price policing can be a great idea. As long as it's kept with maturity and stuff. It's a tough call though as you said. The one thing I dislike and seems to happen. Is when lottery dolpha dolls come home. It's been like barely a day or two since they recieved the doll and bam increase. Like the ever popular Yo-Sd, they're 374 and then are like right away sold for 550 sometimes! Not everyone does it of course.......... >.< but yeah.

[Sand3]

I think the prices level themselves out, just as in any free-market system. If someone is trying to sell a doll for more than it is worth, people won't buy it. There is plenty of information on the internet, so it's not as though you can't find what you need to determine if a doll is over-priced or not, so it's a 'buyer beware' situation. If someone doesn't research what they're buying and pays too much for it, it's on them. Nobody's forcing them to buy a doll. Realistically, it's not as though anything being sold on this forum is necessary to life, these are all luxury items that nobody really needs, so it's not as though there is a huge pressure for people to buy something from an unreasonable seller.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I'm noticing that "luxury item" and "free market" are used in a way is beginning to bother me.

Yes these dolls and their accoutrements are expensive. No they are indeed not necessary to life.

But I'm seeing more and more of an attitude that because they are expensive, it's ok to screw the unwary or to profiteer from someone's ignorance. If that's your view on selling, I'd prefer if you sold on ebay where that's what's expected, not on a community board.

My view is that this is a community and I don't want to treat my fellows like Marks to be fleeced, but as fellow collectors who I want to treat as fairly as I myself would want to be treated. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks like this.

[dolldreams]

Agreeing with what Mellie said - we all know who these people are .


errmm...i don't! and i'm sure quite a few people don't either - so maybe the people who know who these scalpers are they should speak out the names, so we all know who are we talking about .... instead of hinting and speaking in general
thank you! :oops

[Sand3]

My view is that this is a community and I don't want to treat my fellows like Marks to be fleeced, but as fellow collectors who I want to treat as fairly as I myself would want to be treated. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks like this.

I do not feel that it is right to cheat people or that sort of thing, I simply feel that the buyer holds as much responsibility as the seller. When I say 'free market', I mean that the laws of supply and demand apply here, if an item is rare but valued, then it is worth more than it's original retail price, like the Aeon of Dive Seimei head, there are only half a dozen of them known to exist, making it very hard to get and so it has become an expensive item. Does it cost more than the original labor and materials put into it? Yes, but that is justified by supply/demand.
The reason I point to these dolls as 'luxury items' as a justification for letting supply and demand run it's natural course is that I feel there are some items that should be price-controlled in the world, such as food, water and shelter. Collectibles are what we amass when we have disposable money, and therefor I do not feel that there should be an authority keeping tabs on them because their inherent value is zero, their real value is what people give to them, what people are willing to pay.
The responsibility for an item's price falls on both the seller and the buyer. The seller needs to research what their item is worth because otherwise they might unknowingly sell something valuable (like a hard-to-get headsculpt) for a lower price than it is worth. The same applies to a buyer, if getting a good price is important to them, then they should do a little research and find out how much the item they wish to buy is worth. I ended up buying a Little Fair body for $200 once, because I didn't know that their sculpt is identical to the Blue Fairy tiny body that would have cost me $180 to get new. I consider this my mistake, because if I'd bothered to ask in a discussion forum, somebody would have been able to tell me that the sculpt was the same, and if I'd gone to the Blue Fairy web page before buying her, the price is plainly listed there for a body. Because of this experience, I am now more careful when buying marketplace dolls.

[Tsuminaki]

I agree wholeheartedly about the responsibilities of both buyers and sellers. Often, though, I do see that being used as a reason in itself why no one else should be allowed to be concerned or to participate in discussion about such things. Whenever this topic comes up people pop in to say "That's capitalism/economics (though they're often cited incorrectly), leave if you don't like it, end of story." I'm not calling anyone out in particular right now, but notwithstanding that defeating the point of discussion in forums, I just hope that everyone understands the distinction between accepting personal responsibility and enforcing responsibility on others - that while they are not at all the same, it's not necessarily a cut and dried one-or-the-other thing, and that there are many measures that can be taken which could benefit members of this particular community but that leave people's sense of personal responsibility and freedom intact (except for the people who just can't stand not getting their way every second, but that's another issue).
I also agree that a lot of the real discussion about scammers and prige gougers goes on within more personal cliques, while some of course have huge public threads, some never do, or only do after a certain time span, number of offenses, etc., and it also depends on the vocal nature of each particular victim.
It's hard to remember that myself every so often, since I read so many threads that it gets easy to spot certain patterns - "Oh, so and so is posting, I bet it'll be double retail price right after arrival...yup!" But of course, not everyone reads the same threads as I do.

[Sand3]

Tsuminaki makes a very good point about discussion forums, they are here for discussion. As far as things being overpriced, I think that's a matter of caviat emptor, because if you can get the same product somewhere else for cheaper, then you will, but if you can't get the product anywhere else, then maybe it's worth that much or maybe you don't really need it. It's things that have suspiciously low prices that I am interested in, however, and I really do appreciate threads on market places warning about scammers, or explaining why a particular doll is selling for a low price, such as cheap fillers being used in the resin or the like. Also warnings for shifty sellers who take your money and run, that is obviously very much appreciated.

[clea]

i'd like to respectfully point out that although discussion threads are for discussion, one of the reasons boards have been reluctant to tolerate direct criticism of a seller's prices is that the situation so quickly gets out of hand, and great drama is generated. Accusations are hurled, feelings get hurt and reputations are ruined. Sometimes those reputations deserve the harm done, but it's just as easy to hurt someone due to a misunderstanding, and locking or deleting the thread will not heal the damage. If you think a price is too high, you can always take the issue up with the seller privately. Sometimes i think that option isn't exercized first because there is a temptation to pot stirring for those so inclined.

For this reason i really hope we all contribute information about the prices we have paid for dolls to the wiki. i really think access to information is important with any limited or collectable item. i'm all for buyer reports about scammers or quality, bad sellers lists or a wall of shame, but conversational price policing by board members in general is very troubling to me. It invites personal attacks and piling on by disintersted bystanders, and more work for mods down the line.

If someone has a practical suggestion, not a townsfolk-with-torches approach, as to how to deal with scalpers and flippers, i'd like to hear it - i really hate seeing that! But here, i think those who have mentioned free markets do have a point. People will often pay a high premium for novelty or scarcity, real or percieved. It disgusts me to think that someone enters a lottery to get a doll, then loses to someone who will flip it to them at a big profit. But so often, the highest price that scalper will ever get for that doll is right after the Dolpa. That wasn't so true a few years ago when i first joined the hobby, but it often is now. This is not unique to dolls, or even collectables - look at the iPhone for an up-to-the-minute example. If something is new, you don't know what the price will be, only what it is now. You can wait a few weeks or months, to see if you can pay less than that, and so often your patience will be rewarded. But it's a risk, i suppose. My quite limited finances usually dictate the path of patience, but i think it hurts just as much when someone who's made an expensive impulsive purchase has been exploited.

[ravendolls]

I've policed and been policed.

On the former I regretted it because the seller got angry with me, and making enemies is never a good thing...

On the latter I just felt like "gee whiz what's her problem?" Mods deleted it before I saw it on DOA, but it was in my email notification. It was a Volks head that was in awful condition when it arrived. I put a good deal of work into it, so I wasn't just being a cheeseball scalper or anything (not this time anyway, lol), but still. Really I think it's just disappointment talking when that happens... like "Oh I wanted that but not for that price, darn!"

I think if I were to do it nowadays I'd try to frame it as a polite question such as "The price seems a little high to me, I've seen X selling for X lately... can you explain this to us?" But really, I'd be very disinclined to say anything, I'd just move on to the next thing!

Raven

[Hibiscus]

A few pages back a gal talked about not seeing the price policing issue until she encountered ABJD's. That really rings true for me. I have collected Barbie for years, and merrily made a profit during the festival of Holiday Barbie Binging. Did I overcharge those folks? They all paid what was market price *at that time* and were very happy. Have I overpaid for stuff that has a lower market value now? Certainly. I didn't feel cheated then, and I don't now. That's trade in the open marketplace.

What we did frown on back in Barbie's heyday was those folks who aggressively purchased limited items and then worked the market to inflate prices. Scalping? Flipping? Sounds like it, doesn't it? Barbie's market was much larger, and there was lots more product available, but the idea is the same.

I always sort my Dollfie search on ebay by higest price first, so I can LOL at the outlandish prices being asked. Is someone paying them? Possibly. In more realistic auctions, what will Mr Fogg Bermann net? More than I would ever pay, I guarantee you. Congratulations in advance to that deep pocketed individual.

The market is the market. Caveat emptor. If a price seems to high, or just plain IS too high, then as sellers, we should not buy that item. If a buyer is interested, then it should be that person's right to ask about layaways, trades, or price breaks. Sellers should not have to defend themselves, even if their pricing decisions seem absurd. An item not selling sends a pretty clear signal.

I know that the SCALPER label gets flung about on Demons, and sometimes it's deserved, but there are times when I have dealt with the person being vilified, paid a reasonable price, gotten good service, and have no idea what the fuss is about. Block presales, absolutely. Selling for friends? Let them get their own accounts. There's a bargain clothing store in Detroit whose slogan is "An educated consumer is our best customer". That is so true in this market---I certainly plan on adding my purchases to the price index, and I hope that others do as well.

[DimWitted]

i think if you limit the maximum price of dolls you can sell in this forum (for example putting a percentage above certain retail prices), where you still have alternatives such as Ebay and Den of Angels to trade where there is no cap, most sellers will simply gravitate towards the latter mediums as naturally they will want to get the best price for their goods. consequently, there will probably be a severe lack of market activity in this forum because sellers know they can get better deals elsewhere. a market place with fewer sellers will tend to have higher prices anyway because there is no competition in the market to drive the prices down. beside this, there will also be a severe lack of variation in the market place of the types of goods sold.

also a % mark up above retail price would not work on limited edition dolls, because they are not retailed (i.e. sold as standards and unlimited quantity), once they are sold in a limited quantity, there is no more a retail price tag for them.

i think we all agree that the most important issue at hand here is buyers protection whilst still being fair to both seller and buyers. in that case, the fairest way really is to sell dolls in an auction format with reasonable starting price. what is a reasonable starting price then? i think the market forces will determine this value naturally; e.g. if the starting price is too high fewer people will be interested to bid/buy so you won't get too many bids that will increase your price, but the opposite is true, if the starting price is low, more people will be interested and will bid which in turn will drive the price up anyway.

other positive points of an auction format:
- both sellers and buyers are on level playing field, the end winning price is determined purely by supply and demand law
- you get the truest value of a doll at that moment in time
- everybody has equal opportunity to put in a bid. this way it does favour those ppl with more money, but hey it's the way of the world; if you want a ferrari, then you will simply have to work harder, earn more money to be able to afford it. there is no mathematical and more logical way to measure how much you deserve a doll than simply your power to acquire it monetarily.

a point to note is perhaps how safe auctions are conducted, issues such as: what are the safety measures to ensure that sellers are not putting in vendor bids that drive their own prices up? perhaps there should be rules about providing proof that all bids submitted are legitimate and accountable and all market participants will have access to this data.

[Sand3]

The problem with an online auction is that they're so much harder to set up. You'd need either somebody who's a genius with PHP or some pretty expensive software and likely a monthly fee on top of that. That's the main reason selling on DoA and other forums like this is so informal, because otherwise we'd have to be paying a selling fee as well.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I think perhaps the real question is What sort of marketplace are we doing?

Is this a casual "oh these boots don't fit I need to unload them" sort of market or an alternative to ebay?

I'd really prefer not to see an alternate ebay, as there's already an ebay out there to be used. If you want to sell your doll for the maximum $$$ please, take it there or get it listed on Y!J. Advertise the auction. You'll get your $$$$

I think of these marketplaces more as a casual seller unloading your dollies excess, or small specialty item storefronts that are specifically targeted to the doll audience. These types of things are not generally high dollar items and tend not to draw the problems.

[Baakay]

It strikes me that haggling over prices is a time-honored way of life that has a much longer and prouder history than any of us has ;). It could be a really good teaching tool for newcomers, to have more experienced shoppers say -- POLITELY, mind you -- "excuse me but I've seen this doll selling for closer to $X in other places. Could you clarify for me why this one is so much higher?" (or lower, for that matter... there might be undisclosed issues).

So while perhaps "policing" - which carries a rather negative connotation -- isn't what ought to be encouraged, legitimate and respectful questioning should be allowed. And people asking the questions should not get the big smack-down for doing so.

***
moments later:

Geez, look back up a few posts and as usual, I find that I unwittingly used almost the identical phrase Raven used.
Maybe... having so many of her former dolls here has started having some mysterious effect on me ;)

[Janne]

For my part, I'd like to see a very community-based Marketplace - people looking out for each other.

As for auctions, I hate to admit this, but I'm not really sure how a forum-based auction works. Or if it's entirely fair.

For example, on eBay, you can enter your maximum bid, but the proxy bids just enough to beat the current bid - not the entire amount.

On a forum, with PM-based bids, your maximum bid seems to automatically become the bid to beat. (Never mind the trust issue - but that goes with all auctions.)

[lin]

I don't really need price policing. When I see an overpriced (to me) doll, I just keep looking until I find one for a reasonable price. If I am selling a doll, I discount it for things that keep it from being mint (mods, flaws, color changes, etc.). I sometimes split the shipping price if I'm selling it to someone who will have to pay customs, or ship for free if it is not a very big item. In return, I have never had a doll that didn't sell pretty soon in the DOA marketplace. I can understand that people want their investment back when they sell a doll, but sometimes that is just not possible if the demand for the doll has fallen off. If the demand for the doll has risen, they may be able to get back more than their initial investment. In my case, for the dolls I have bought and sold, it just evens out. Scalpers and flippers are another matter entirely. I would not want someone to tell me how much I could ask for my doll.

[ravendolls]

Geez, look back up a few posts and as usual, I find that I unwittingly used almost the identical phrase Raven used.
Maybe... having so many of her former dolls here has started having some mysterious effect on me ;)


Oh good! It's working!! XD


I checked back into this thread because I saw a post on DOA that made me smack my forehead... Some gal is selling (or trying to sell) a 1/4 AOD for like 550 bucks!! Now I expect that sort of thing on ebay (to some extent) but then posting a link to it on DOA made me just Grrrrr!!!!:mad

And NOT ONE PERSON has said anything to her... have things changed or what?!:?

Raven

[sgtgeorgecarter]

And NOT ONE PERSON has said anything to her... have things changed or what?!:?

Raven

because no one wants the Mod smack.

[Comrade Kiskalla]

because no one wants the Mod smack.

That's it in a nutshell.

No one says anything because the mods will just delete the post. Yet, when some unsuspecting soul buys the item at a ridiculous price and find out later they were cheated, they're told that they should've asked around to find out if they weren't being ripped off.

[V chan]

You can't even politely ask on DoA because the sellers have the posts deleted. Like that one time someone was selling a cardboard doll box which they had painted blue and put clouds on it for 60 bucks. I'm all for polite asking and if you don't have an answer or can't justify your price then I know not to buy from you.

[Lizzegirle]

I'm just repeating what others have said, but I'm more of a "stay out of my business" kind of gal. I'm not a scalper, nor do I like the idea of scalping, but it is your responsibility as a buyer to know what prices are fair and what you are willing to pay for a doll. If a person has something set too high, then the market will reflect that. No one will purchase it. If the doll is set at an increased price and someone buys it, then that is what the doll is worth. That's how our little microeconomic world works. As long as there is someone who is willing to pay a certain price, the dolls will always be sold for that price.

I don't want to get flamed for that comment, so I just want to state that I hate not being able to afford the dolls I want to be able to own, but the reason why I can't own them is because I don't want to pay that price for those dolls. I'm am the farthest thing from a wealthy woman that you can probably get, but if I really want a doll, I am sure as hell going to save up enough until I can afford to pay the price that people are asking.

[rillystar]

Price policing would be really hard not to mention controversial. The dolly world changes and with it prices over limited etc. For example a Bermann now might got for 2-5k but there's still a release left right? So people still have a chance. But once that last release comes out suddenly it's realization that there are no more and the prices may skyrocket (theoretically, but it's a decent example).

Is there a way to police the pricing? even a general price range can't really dictate a lot of what might be popular or situational circumstances that may cause a mould to go up or down in price. Generally speaking the open marketplace should be able to dictate pricing (generally how markets like this work from my understanding). If a seller is pricing something too high - then it generally shouldn't sell. Too low and it gets bid up. Ideally the market itself should take care of overpriced scalpers.

On the other hand a large part of the problem is also ingrained into the doll community itself and some of it's more social impact aspects. A lot of people often ask (new to the hobby) if it's worth it to buy such and such a doll or if it's worth it to shell out for doll X which is the doll of their dreams. More often then not you'll see people go 'hey doll of your dreams is doll of your dreams - pay anything to get it.' See the problem there? I always caution, if it seems too far out there and not worth it, don't get it. If it really is the OMG gotta die for it it's the only one then maybe consider it. But honestly caution and moderation should be something we stress more in these situations if we really want scalping to reduce significantly - once the scalpers realize they're not selling at the insane prices and holding onto more and more items, they'll need to bring the costs down or reduce the scalping they do do (ie in this case purchasing dolls for the purpose of selling them for profit only).

Other circumstances though may warrant someone asking for higher prices - financial situation, for example, or selling at their cost (if they for example got taken in my scalper) it's hard to say and there's no fast and hard rules to sorting scalpers from people just trying to get back their money (hey but if you can make more...I've yet to encounter a person unwilling to accept a little extra cash). In these cases it really becomes difficult to see where to draw lines if groups start heavily price policing, while that doesn't mean we can't offer a helpful hand (especially to newbies) on general pricings for certain types of dolls it would be awfully restrictive to have to go through everything and approve or disapprove sales of dolls, clothing, eyes etc. Not saying it's impossible just it can be very restrictive depending on how heavily it's done.

[gayle]

I think the best price policing comes from common sense. If a seller can get the high price they are asking, then the buyers are the ones setting the prices. STOP paying too much! Be patient.

I completely agree with this. Conversely, if a scalper can't get an overinflated price, eventually they will let the item go at a lesser one. Basic economics 101, Supply and Demand.

I certainly think having an original price index would be extremely helpful. In addition, asking honest questions should always be permitted, though the possibility of questions designed to "out" someone as a scalper, should be discouraged. The possibility for attack and abuse of an individual is too great.

Another thing to consider is that markets (any markets) are fluid, and subject to change. This is true of any high ticket or sought after item. For example, when we bought our house in 1994 it's purchase price was $184,000. It is now valued at over $700,000, why? Because homes in the area NOW sell for that pricing. Some dolls will (and do) reflect the same trend.

To go back to what Lolly said, if you want to keep market prices down, don't pay the inflated prices. If the market won't bear a price it changes the market for that item.

[Jinnayah]

I'm against price policing for several reasons.
1) We're not children. I don't care what your physical age is, if you are capable of spending several hundred dollars on something, you're old enough to handle it. And since we're not children, we don't need and shouldn't have others mommying us. And we especially shouldn't have others mommying us against our wishes.
2) Call me cold-hearted, but I can't have a lot of sympathy for someone who drops hundreds or even thousands of dollars without doing research on their purchase. Honestly, I don't think it's really very common for someone to drastically overspend on one of these dolls without knowing that they're doing so, just because it takes so much time for most of us to save and I'd say that most of us doing so are watching prices fairly carefully so we know how much we'll need. And I'd go further to say that most of the people who have been "taken" were not innocent babes in the woods, but rather people who should have known better, got too excited and realize that it's their own fault, and don't want to deal with that.
3) No one else knows what it's worth to me to be able to have something now instead of waiting for a deal. Heck, it's why I buy from the local Barnes and Noble instead of ordering from Amazon. I don't want someone else to 'protect' me from spending too much on a doll that's usually cheaper. Maybe I'm willing to pay $200 to have the doll now instead of having to wait for an unknown amount of time for another to become available.
4) Let's be honest. Some people have more extreme definitions of "scalping" than others. I've seen some people claim that any amount over the original retail is scalping, no matter what the circumstances. I don't know if they really believe that or just haven't thought it through, but IMO, that's wildly unrealistic and unfair to the sellers. "OMG, you're selling a Bermann for original retail PLUS the price you paid for shipping to you? You scalper!" I don't think so.
5) One problem with price policing, is that some people thus set themselves up as policemen. What gives them that authority?
6) Price policing by common forumites (as opposed to mods and admins) is AT LEAST as much about control and embarrassment as it is about protection. A public message challenging someone's price is intended to embarrass them, or else it'd be done privately. A private message is intended to change someone's behavior to what the messager wants, not what the seller wants. Believing that you have the right to change someone else's behavior when it is not doing harm to you is egotistical at best, and it's a short walk to dangerous.
7) Price policing as a forum policy basically just insures that rare and/or highly desirable items won't show up on the forum marketplace. If that's what we want, OK, but that's all that we'll get.

If you think a price is not fair, don't pay it. Privately advise your friends that you think it's unfair. But trying to control others is not acceptable.

[Comrade Kiskalla]

I disagree, Jinnayah.

Sure we're not children. But that has little to do with helping fellow hobbyists. Everyone could do for a helping hand in their life, else you wouldn't be on a forum discussing things with other people. That's what a community does: looks out for their own. If people didn't question sellers on their pricing people like Kakyuu would still be rolling around with an obscene amount of our money.


I have nothing against publicly asking a seller how they came about a specific price if I see it a large sum over what the majority of people are paying. Is the feedback area nothing more than people publicly praising/calling out others on their business practices? That was one of the biggest drawbacks to DOA: if you asked someone, "Why is that free box $60 now?" the thread would immediately be locked, or deleted because how dare someone question the logic (or lack thereof) of the seller. There's nothing wrong with an auction getting driven up to astronomical values. If someone wants that El bad enough to bid war up to a few grand, so be it. But don't demand $2k right off the bat. A little patience goes a long way.

[harlowe]

I think there is a way to "price police" (it's a bad term) in a sense without being snotty or immature about it. We do it in our every day life all the time. Just like you would buying anything, a car, a tv - what have you - if the price seems out of line, you'd certainly question it and it wouldn't be rude to do so in front of other shoppers.

So of course I think questioning the price of something that appears really high should certainly be allowed. If people are all adults here, then they should feel free to ask an honest question and if the sellers are adults as well, they shouldn't get defensive if their pricing gets questioned.

Though imagining the "Cartman" hey man, you're busting my ballls thing is amusing.

[bunnydots]

I disagree, Jinnayah.

Sure we're not children. But that has little to do with helping fellow hobbyists. Everyone could do for a helping hand in their life, else you wouldn't be on a forum discussing things with other people.


I can see Jinnayah's point to the extent that while some people might welcome the help, others, such as myself, might not. If I need help on the forum I generally ask, and the main reason I come on a forum is not to get help with things. I enjoy discussion and sharing views much more than I need help in the sense of someone coming on and helping me. I like much better if there is something like a list of bad sellers, then I can read it myself and decide if I still want to transact just based on my own research, than have someone aggressively burst into the middle of what I'm doing offering unsolicited advice (which has happened at least once).

[Bel]

Rillystar said: Ideally the market itself should take care of overpriced scalpers.

You'd think. Scalpers never seem to think of themselves as scalpers, strangely. They post a doll at a ridiculous price. If someone pays it, well, "the market has spoken," so they did nothing wrong. And if no one pays it, I bet you ten bucks the scalper doesn't think, "This is the market taking care of a scalper," but thinks, "The market's a little down right now. Tra la."

I put scalpers/people with whom I won't deal on my Ignore list on DoA so I don't get all nosebleed-pissed at them. With the classifieds system here, I don't have to worry about it. Yay!

[zalem]

I love you Bel. :) Couldn't have said it better myself. Here, have some rum! :drunk:rum

[Bel]

Cheers! *sighs into the rum**_*:rum

[Tez]

Rillystar said:

You'd think. Scalpers never seem to think of themselves as scalpers, strangely. They post a doll at a ridiculous price. If someone pays it, well, "the market has spoken," so they did nothing wrong. And if no one pays it, I bet you ten bucks the scalper doesn't think, "This is the market taking care of a scalper," but thinks, "The market's a little down right now. Tra la."

I put scalpers/people with whom I won't deal on my Ignore list on DoA so I don't get all nosebleed-pissed at them. With the classifieds system here, I don't have to worry about it. Yay!
Exceptionally well put. I'll drink to that! :drunk

[harlowe]

Exceptionally well put. I'll drink to that! :drunk

Very well put. /clinks glasses

[mellie]

Very well put. /clinks glasses

Agreed. :lol

[Ai Kazi]

I like the idea of having a guide of MP average prices....I think they should also put places like ebay and Y!J...so there is a whole picture.

I would hate buying a doll at 2k thinking it was the average MP price and then if I ever tried to sell it back having people label me as a scalper and ruining my reputation on the MP forever. ;( I think a really up-to-date guide would fix that.

[rillystar]

For the most part it sounds like people like the idea of a guide rather than price policing. Great thought but the problem lies in who will maintain the guide (because it will go out of date and prices will go up and down depending on releases, unavailability etc). I believe some people on DoA started one on some of the Volks dolls but I rarely see it updated, though once in a while it'll get bumped up. Could you imagine having to do that for all dolls/heads etc? O,o it boggles my brain, although perhaps a sticky at the top would work out better as people are reminded to update it. (though too many stickies get cumbersome)

Think it's also a bit hard to name a price if extras are included (e.g. extra outfit, shoes, eyes, limited stuff) but that's something all together different :)

[harlowe]

Well that could be something that is disclosed when a person openly questions pricing. Both parties can discuss it maturely - unless someone has something to hide about the sale.

Example of an adult exchange of information:

Potential buyer or board member: Hey I noticed you are asking X for your AverageJoeDoll, normally they go for around X-$200.

Seller: I'm selling AverageJoeDoll for X because he has a fabulous face-up that is in pristine condition by SuperAmazingFaceUpArtist & I'm including a pair of HolyCowThoseAreHardToGetEyes.

Sounds like it's on the up and up.

Example of someone skirting the issue:

Potential buyer or board member: Hey I noticed you are asking X for your AverageJoeDoll, normally they go for around X-$200.

Seller: Please don't price police in my sales thread. I am asking this price because this is what RandomEbayScalper charged me. /reports question in thread for mod deletion.

[rillystar]

ideally that would be great...but people get tichy (and probably not as polite as your second example) hence when the post removal wars begin....I wish everyone was able to communicate more like version 1 but the reality is that not everyone will :( which is kinda sad.

Ideally a seller will disclose that information already in the listing (what extras are included, anything beyond the default that comes with the doll and the condition)..it kinda baffles me when sellers don't include that info and expect buyers to just go 'ok I'll spend the extra $300 on your doll' without knowing what they're getting....

Either way how do we as a community deal with the 'type 2' situations and when do we draw the line of where we deem it having 'crossed the line'. probably something that the community as a whole needs to discuss and then mods can decide on actions taken. I suppose if the guidelines are really clear we should see very little of that behavior but there are those that either don't read rules or don't care :( Is there some sort of manditory process we can get people through reading these guidelines? Not unless someone is forced to go through a tutorial or something before being able to access the MP but then what's to stop them from skipping through? I'll have to think on that more...

[zalem]

So does that mean you fully explain your prices in your sales threads?

I think a lot of people on this forum are totally in favor of letting buyers politely question. We're adults here after all. I would hope that we could stay civil. Sure there might be some who might go overboard, but I don't think the actions of a few should affect the rights of the many.

[Lizzard]

I think a lot of people on this forum are totally in favor of letting buyers politely question. We're adults here after all. I would hope that we could stay civil. Sure there might be some who might go overboard, but I don't think the actions of a few should affect the rights of the many.

I love you.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

Sure there might be some who might go overboard, but I don't think the actions of a few should affect the rights of the many.

Thank you! :kisses

[bunnydots]

Well that could be something that is disclosed when a person openly questions pricing. Both parties can discuss it maturely - unless someone has something to hide about the sale.

Example of an adult exchange of information:

Potential buyer or board member: Hey I noticed you are asking X for your AverageJoeDoll, normally they go for around X-$200.

Seller: I'm selling AverageJoeDoll for X because he has a fabulous face-up that is in pristine condition by SuperAmazingFaceUpArtist & I'm including a pair of HolyCowThoseAreHardToGetEyes.

Sounds like it's on the up and up.




OK, the above is reasonable. Now, how about if Seller says "I am asking X because I need X dollars for my current expenses and if I can't get X then it's not worth my selling this AverageJoeDoll, I'd rather just keep him for now, but I'm hoping someone will love him enough to pay the X extra dollars." Is that OK? Sounds like it probably is, because if it's just AverageJoeDoll, then there will probably be several of them in the marketplace and if it's too high people will just buy a different one, and it's likely seller will throw in a couple wigs or an outfit or something to make the price go higher.

So then, howabout if it's not AverageJoeDoll, but instead it's SuperLimitedDoll, and seller says "I am asking X because this doll is sold out everywhere and lots of people want one and I have large expenses right now that I am trying to cover, so if I can't get this high price it's not worth me selling this doll right now, so that's why it's so high, sorry." Or what if Seller says, "Well, this doll is sold out everywhere, there were only 50 in the world made, and I had to stand in a really long line at the Dolpa to get him so this accounts for my time as well." Do the questions then stop, or are people allowed to question and comment further on the sales?

[harlowe]

OK, the above is reasonable. Now, how about if Seller says "I am asking X because I need X dollars for my current expenses and if I can't get X then it's not worth my selling this AverageJoeDoll, I'd rather just keep him for now, but I'm hoping someone will love him enough to pay the X extra dollars." Is that OK? Sounds like it probably is, because if it's just AverageJoeDoll, then there will probably be several of them in the marketplace and if it's too high people will just buy a different one, and it's likely seller will throw in a couple wigs or an outfit or something to make the price go higher.

So then, howabout if it's not AverageJoeDoll, but instead it's SuperLimitedDoll, and seller says "I am asking X because this doll is sold out everywhere and lots of people want one and I have large expenses right now that I am trying to cover, so if I can't get this high price it's not worth me selling this doll right now, so that's why it's so high, sorry." Or what if Seller says, "Well, this doll is sold out everywhere, there were only 50 in the world made, and I had to stand in a really long line at the Dolpa to get him so this accounts for my time as well." Do the questions then stop, or are people allowed to question and comment further on the sales?

I think you just need to be sensible about it. I don't look at it as an opportunity for people to argue, but to be open about pricing and questioning the reasoning behind prices that seem off base, rather than shushing people for asking or trying to mask scalping. It is what it is. This also helps the less savvy doll buyers from being taken advantage of. It's one thing if a person knows the general worth of something and wants it bad enough to pay a great deal more and another when a person is newer to the hobby and ends up being utterly gouged.

Once the person answers, you have your answer. Whether you like the answer or not, it's out in the open. You can either pay for it, negotiate the cost or wait for something to come along that is a more fair market price.

Having the process as transparent as possible is a good thing.

[Tez]

So does that mean you fully explain your prices in your sales threads?

I think a lot of people on this forum are totally in favor of letting buyers politely question. We're adults here after all. I would hope that we could stay civil. Sure there might be some who might go overboard, but I don't think the actions of a few should affect the rights of the many.
Many hearts and lots of rum to you for this. :kisses

[Jinnayah]

Perhaps I come from a different background, because my experience is that polite inquiries are less the norm. More often I've seen:
Self-appointed police-man: "No one buy this doll! This person's a scalper! This doll is only worth $XXX!"
Not-a-scalper: "Excuse me, but as I said in my sales text, this doll also includes a fabulous face-up that is in pristine condition by SuperAmazingFaceUpArtist, worth $AA, & I'm including a pair of HolyCowThoseAreHardToGetEyes worth $BBB."

Now, I don't generally consider a polite price inquiry to be price "policing". I consider policing to be more of a hard forum price limit, or statements of enforcement. If we could keep it to polite inquiries, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I already see a lot of assumption of ill intent on the seller's part, and combined with past experience, I question whether the community will. It requires a benefit of the doubt for the seller, a sincerity to the "can you explain the price on this item?" rather than an assumption that an individual is a scalper, even if they don't have a past record. Are we also willing to "police" a positive standard of behavior? (And by that, I don't mean that we all act like happy flufferbunnies who won't allow any hint of negativity and so don't allow any inquiries at all, but that we be willing to recognize when accusations are made hostilely and without foundation and express that we want our fellow community members treated with respect.)

(BTW, to forestall an assumption of empathy rather than sympathy, anyone is welcome to ask about the price on any of my items. I'll pull out my spreadsheet and tell you how long it took to make.)

[harlowe]

because my experience is that polite inquiries are less the norm. More often I've seen: Self-appointed police-man: "No one buy this doll! This person's a scalper! This doll is only worth $XXX!"

I honestly have yet to see anyone pop into a sales thread and behave that way.

Worst case scenario is someone does throw a fit and then the mods step in and deal with the behavior and it will become pretty clear what is and is not acceptable.

[bunnydots]

This all may end up not being that big of a deal because any seller planning to ask a price significantly over market for something seems highly likely to just slap the item up on a forum that doesn't allow "price policing," or on an auction forum such as eBay where the seller sets a price/reserves/etc. and doesn't have to answer questions about it. It's possible that this entire discussion focusing on the subject has just taken care of any price issue that might ever arise on this forum.

[rillystar]

I honestly have yet to see anyone pop into a sales thread and behave that way.

Worst case scenario is someone does throw a fit and then the mods step in and deal with the behavior and it will become pretty clear what is and is not acceptable.

I have...it was quite ugly :( mods ended up locking and then cleaning up the thread...or deleting...can't remember...also happens a lot on other forums and boards for other hobbies as well

[Comrade Kiskalla]

Perhaps I come from a different background, because my experience is that polite inquiries are less the norm. More often I've seen:
Self-appointed police-man: "No one buy this doll! This person's a scalper! This doll is only worth $XXX!"
Not-a-scalper: "Excuse me, but as I said in my sales text, this doll also includes a fabulous face-up that is in pristine condition by SuperAmazingFaceUpArtist, worth $AA, & I'm including a pair of HolyCowThoseAreHardToGetEyes worth $BBB."

Now, I don't generally consider a polite price inquiry to be price "policing". I consider policing to be more of a hard forum price limit, or statements of enforcement. If we could keep it to polite inquiries, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I already see a lot of assumption of ill intent on the seller's part, and combined with past experience, I question whether the community will. It requires a benefit of the doubt for the seller, a sincerity to the "can you explain the price on this item?" rather than an assumption that an individual is a scalper, even if they don't have a past record. Are we also willing to "police" a positive standard of behavior? (And by that, I don't mean that we all act like happy flufferbunnies who won't allow any hint of negativity and so don't allow any inquiries at all, but that we be willing to recognize when accusations are made hostilely and without foundation and express that we want our fellow community members treated with respect.)

(BTW, to forestall an assumption of empathy rather than sympathy, anyone is welcome to ask about the price on any of my items. I'll pull out my spreadsheet and tell you how long it took to make.)

You're example seems a bit off, since if a seller discloses all the information about the item(s) being sold, most people are able to see the price and think very little of it. When people have to scratch their heads and wonder how a specific price was deduced, that's already a failing for the seller.

It's a simple matter of personal responsibility. If they're going to demand a specific price for an item, they had better make sure that the have damned good reasons for it. A $400 dollar markup on a standard doll makes no sense. Ergo, it would be a bad move to start a sell asking for it.

[chibaraki]

On the one hand I think sellers can charge whatever they like for what they're selling... but on the other, I think it's a shame if someone pays more than what an item is worth because they don't actually know what that item is worth.

I agree with the people saying that it ought to be okay to ask -- POLITELY -- why something is priced the way it is. If the answer is "because it has X, Y, and Z that make it worth that much," or "because that's how much I need to get for it to be worth it to me to sell it," I'd like to know that, to be honest. This is getting to be a big hobby, and it's increasingly difficult to keep track of what things are worth (and really, how many people can you expect to know that *pulls example out of butt* those Hitomiya eyes go for a hundred bucks on Y!J?).

[Comrade Kiskalla]

This is getting to be a big hobby, and it's increasingly difficult to keep track of what things are worth (and really, how many people can you expect to know that *pulls example out of butt* those Hitomiya eyes go for a hundred bucks on Y!J?).

Exactly. this is a huge hobby, not to mention not everyone may be net savvy enough to know how to find the information on market values, and the like.

I recall back when Magical Michael was first released. There were a lot of people paying an arm and a leg for him in secondary market, because the Japanese Volks site had him listed as sold out. On a whim, I had looked at the US site (which, at the time, had a problem with being hard to navigate with dead links and whatnot) and saw that a quite a few were still available there. But so many people didn't know. I had used a FireFox add on to find urls that weren't properly linked. Quite a a few folks ended up pay a hekkuva lot more than they had to because it never occurred to them to do what I did. And many less than reputable sellers were willing to not divulge this fact; I caught a shitload of flak from them for it, too.

[Bel]

Rillystar said - I have...it was quite ugly mods ended up locking and then cleaning up the thread...or deleting...can't remember...

That may be a good example of "the market taking care of overpriced scalpers." It seems to me that if someone's putting up prices that result in attacks, locks, deletions, etc, they might want to reconsider their sales approach.

[zalem]

*hands some more rum to Bel* :drunk:rum:rum:rum

[Tez]

*hands some more rum to Bel* :drunk:rum:rum:rum
Thanks to Bel we're all going to be smashed off our asses by the time this thread has run its course. :drunk:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum

[Lizzard]

This thread makes me happy. :drunk:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum

[Bel]

Zalem, I owe you rum for your earlier post, too.

:ninja:rum:rum:rum

[JennyNemesis]

No policing. Let the people pay or charge what they want. They can ask ridiculous starting amounts, and the community can respond by not submitting a single bid until the price drops. If you have a problem with the price, ask the seller to break it down & justify it for you. If you believe their justification, OK. If you don't, don't buy. If a buyer can't take the time & effort to research a reasonable price for that doll, then it's entirely up to them if they pay "too much". Somebody else's 'too much' may also not be someone else's 'too much', so let each buyer decide. Caveat emptor.

Allowing vigilante price-police only creates bad blood, and a LOT of it. Publicly posting things like "Don't you think that's a bit high?" or "Don't you feel bad selling this, because it was a gift head?" are cheap, passive-aggressive little digs that any prospective buyer should be privately contacting the seller about.

[gayle]

Right On Jenny!!!!!

[Amaryllis]

I have to take a neutral stance on price policing. Part of me is appalled by people who buy a limited (yet widely available doll) and ups the ante on the price by a significant amount, but another part of me goes, "Well, hey, if people want to pay far out the rear for that doll, they can go ahead. It's their money, not mine."

In short: let people make their own choices, whether its responsible or not.

[rillystar]

Publicly posting things like "Don't you think that's a bit high?" or "Don't you feel bad selling this, because it was a gift head?" are cheap, passive-aggressive little digs that any prospective buyer should be privately contacting the seller about.

I see this a lot actually... (the free gift part). funnily enough it's seriously is not consistent across moulds, companies etc. Somehow selling say the free Nanuri 2007 head is ok however selling the limited free Recall head isn't. Both were gifts but somehow one is ok to sell beyond the 'free' price in fact sold at times well over $200 but the other selling at a mere $100 or $150 isn't?

Free head or doll - it's up to the seller how they want to sell it and for how much, but I do support having enough research material out there for newbies who don't know the ropes to do their own searching before seriously buying something. Maybe a little tutorial before making their first purchase, or allowing them into the marketplace? Just something that walks them through some of the pitfalls and shows them good resources where they can look up information for themselves. Feedback should be another option as well and something people look into before buying as there's a lot to be said about transaction history and trending.

[harlowe]

I don't think anyone has been in favor of an "angry villager" mentality with regard to pricing (that's why the term Price Policing is a bad one). I think the majority seem to be saying, let the question be asked and whatever the answer is, it is. People will be satisfied with the answer and buy it or they won't like the answer and they won't.

Being all hush-hush about it is silly. It's an honest question for someone to openly ask.

Frankly, I think the only people who would have a problem with that, is people that don't want to answer the question.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I'm agreed here. No one is advocating price levels, just the ability to ask a question and not be deleted. I think that's pretty fair.

[Bel]

Rillystar - I swear to god I don't have a personal vendetta against you, but I really can't let this lie.

I see this a lot actually... (the free gift part)....Both were gifts but somehow one is ok to sell beyond the 'free' price in fact sold at times well over $200 but the other selling at a mere $100 or $150 isn't?

YOU DO THIS. Okay? And you're being completely disingenuous in your posts in this thread. I consider you a straight-up scalper. I've seen your "trending."

Yes, it's up to the seller to set a price. Yes, it's up to the buyer to do research. But if the buyer makes a mistake and overpays because they didn't know any better, the scalper walks away with the money, and the buyer WILL figure it out eventually, and feel like shit. Maybe it serves them right. I DO want people to learn their own lessons, to figure it out for themselves, to use their damn brains, and to grow thanks to their own mistakes. But I DON'T want them to get set up by people who prey on ignorance.

I'd have more respect for someone with an overpriced doll who stood up and said, "I'm asking $xx because I'd rather not part with him for less, and because he's beautiful and special enough that someone's bound to fall for him and be willing to pay it for this individual doll."

I have NO respect for someone who blatantly scalps and then not only pretends that they don't, but attempts to position themselves as a noble voice of fucking reason.

[Melaidhrin]

I think I love you, Bel. I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Sola]

Bel, feel free to get yourself toasted on my tab.
:rum :rum :rum :drunk

[Tereya Chan]

Bel, that took some real balls, but the honesty is refreshing. Frankly, people need to know who the scalpers are. As you said, sometimes it's peoples own fault if they fall for a scalper, but it's also the responsibility of other people to say hey, that person their is probably trying to take advantage of you.

[NightWatch]

Bel, you're gutsy and I really respect that. *tips hat*

And concerning the thread...I'm going to put myself on the line here (and be very long winded).

I've personally sold a limited free gift doll (auction style). And I got questioned on it in my sales thread on DoA by someone who wanted me to justify how I could sell a free gift from a company. Did I feel a bit put out? Of course! But do I still agree with allowing the community to question sellers publicly? Definitely!

In my case, I could have asked for the DoA mods to delete the questions since they aren't allowed but I decided if one person's thinking it, surely there are others too. So might as well explain and have it up for others to read. It turned out to be a good decision.

In short; I agree that there shouldn't be any rules against asking the seller a question publicly. We're not saying that we should dictate how much a doll should be sold for. But being allowed to ask might help clarify matters, reduce speculation and possibly reduce the animosity some of us might feel when we are forced to remain silent instead.

[callior]

Personally, I think buyers should be allowed to ask questions. Because sometimes the seller honestly didn't know that the price they've put on something is unreasonable, sometimes there is a good reason that the buyer don't know about (limited face up, valuable extras) and the question actually helps the seller.

And sometimes the seller is nothing but a filthy scalper, and the question draws attention to the fact that the doll/clothes/items were half the price when the company sold them just a few weeks ago.

[Moggie]

Not really much I can add to this. Seems to have been mostly said over and over in various ways. ;)

Perhaps just one thought on the subject of "free" or "gift" items from companies.

I don't see a problem with selling them if you don't want them. Although they are "free" they have value.

What that value is depends on the rarity and what the market is prepared to pay.

Other than that little musing, I'm basically "caveat emptor" Do your research before buying. :)

[Shizen]

I go with Moggie on that. Do remember that most of the free stuff aren't really free in the sense that you paid nothing to get one. There was still a purchase requirement, timeframe, and possibly other conditions for one to have acquired the free gift item.

[bunnydots]

Yes, it's up to the seller to set a price. Yes, it's up to the buyer to do research. But if the buyer makes a mistake and overpays because they didn't know any better, the scalper walks away with the money, and the buyer WILL figure it out eventually, and feel like shit.

Not trying to start anything here, but not all buyers get all upset about paying a higher than market price. I've done it occasionally in all collectibles areas and there are reasons why I've done it. Often it was a matter of the cost of my time being more than the money I would have saved by waiting or looking around to get it somewhere else. Sometimes I just wanted it "right then".

I understand that some people might feel bothered or like they have been taken advantage of. To me it's just a cost of doing business. Given a certain circumstance I might overpay for item A and then end up finding a really good deal somewhere else on item B. If a seller appears to me to have shady business practices, such as selling something other than what's advertised, then I'll be wary of them, but if it's just a matter of a high markup, I'll pay it if it's worth that to me, and not cry about it later in any event. If it's not worth that to me, I just won't pay it.

I'm making this point because there are always comments about "oh the person must have felt really bad later when they figured out how much they overpaid, and be too embarrassed to say anything." That's not the case with me, and perhaps not with other people either if they're very active in collectibles markets. I've never felt taken advantage of by a seller who delivered what was promised, because I made the decision to spend that money or not, and I could have waited for the next one to come along if I didn't want to pay so much.

[Bel]

Nightwatch I've personally sold a limited free gift doll (auction style). I'm totally down with that. I'm on the side of the fence that prefers auctions - and not just out of fairness, either. Seems to me that the seller's almost always going to get *more* by selling through auction. And yeah, I tried like hell to win a Juri head on Ebay once, and tried to pay a sick amount of money. SICK. Someone else had deeper pockets. :)

Bunnydots -Not trying to start anything here, but not all buyers get all upset about paying a higher than market price. I completely agree with this. I've paid higher than market price myself, on purpose, quite happily because I wanted that particular head with that particular paint job, for instance. Or because I wanted a body right this second. Or, for that matter, a Unoa - heh. I called that my "impatience tax."

A buyer going into a sale with eyes wide open - heck, any buyer - has the right to pay whatever they want. I would not, and have never, maligned anyone for paying any amount of money. It's their money, and if they get what they want for said money, good for them, seriously. Happy times for all.

A seller being dishonest, however, is bad news for all of us.

[rillystar]

Bel - to clarify, I do answer questions when asked. I've both given away limited/non-limited heads for free as well as sold both above and below market prices depending on need buyer determination, and / or how much I paid for things. I've broken down the costs before for people who have asked and if they choose not to believe such that is their prerogative. I have never lied or been dishonest in my listings on eBay or on DoA. If you have a question about something on my listed items go ahead and ask. I do purchase every doll with the intent to keep it, but like many others I either find it doesn't fit or buyer's remorse a few weeks or months later.

As for your comment about my posts, I'm merely trying to point out a few things, I'm not trying to be rude but I do apologize if you are construing that my tone is as such. I'm not sure how to fix that as I usually type in this manner - I personally find the written word being difficult to interpret without visual cues that one can garner from face to face or even phone conversation.

[miss sha]

So many :kisses for you, Bel. You definitely said what I'm sure all of us were thinking when Rilly showed up.

I still quite agree with people having the right to politely inquire in sales threads. And whatever the answer is, it is, but people should be allowed to ask for an answer to begin with, IMHO. And the problem with making the information available is that, as I'm sure DoA is an enormously obvious example, that most people don't actually make use of the information, whether intentionally or because they overlook somehow. And the problem that often occurs with people paying an impatience tax - while that's perfectly fine and good and I've probably paid it a few times myself (I remember debating long and hard about buying a 70,000yen Unoa boy on YJ when they first came out) - is that people see that price paid, and think they can get the same price when they sell it. I think someone mentioned before getting a little overzealous in an auction for a certain head and having it go way over market value, and suddenly several other heads popped up for around that same price to reflect the new "market value," though none of those heads sold because the person who would already pay that price for that item had already done so. So, yeah, basically. It's simple to say just don't buy items at a price a scalper sets, but unfortunately someone almost always does.

Urk, that was rambly. *_* Sorry, I'm about ready for a nap.

[Moggie]

Just out of curiousity, since people have mentioned not being unhappy about paying more than people think they ought to...... What sort of a percentage of buyers do people think are unhappy later with what they paid for something?

Is there actually that many people who feel ripped off or is it just the perception of others that there should be a whole stadium full of people moaning about what they paid for something afterwards.

Maybe the pricing police are trying to enforce something that the buyers don't really care about, they got what they wanted, when they wanted and at a price they were prepared to pay. ;)

[Xi-feng]

So many :kisses for you, Bel. You definitely said what I'm sure all of us were thinking when Rilly showed up.QFE-ing this.

Bel, ever so much kudos to you. People have really been making a conscious effort not to name names so far in this discussion in the spirit of keeping things friendly, but when the scalpers themselves actually have the nerve to come to this thread and start whining it takes a gutsy person to stand up and call them out on exactly what they're doing. These are the exact people that (many/some) people want 'price policing/questioning/whatever we want to call it' put in place to guard against, but even that is no help if people won't actually speak up. A great big round of applause for you, and in lieu of buying you a real drink, I offer even more :drunk:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum:rum

[zalem]

You actually did it Bel? Hehehe...

More rum?:drunk:rum:rum:rum

[sgtgeorgecarter]

Is there actually that many people who feel ripped off or is it just the perception of others that there should be a whole stadium full of people moaning about what they paid for something afterwards.

I have been. And I no longer buy from that set of people. I also warn off others. Also in other places where people are allowed to moan, yes there are a number of unhappy people who now know they've been ripped off and are not happy about it. Sadly some people are simply resigned to it. That disturbs me even more.

Group orders are one area where I'd really felt ripped off. It starts out as one price then as you go along there's the "oh well here's your shipping pt 2 I forgot to tell you about" or the "Oh I miscalculated and it actually 10.00 more" email.

No one minds fees, but be up front about it. There's several people I don't do orders with because I don't like their fee structure. But credit to them they outline it completely so each person can make their own decision.



Maybe the pricing police are trying to enforce something that the buyers don't really care about, they got what they wanted, when they wanted and at a price they were prepared to pay. ;)

I'm sure many don't care. I know I just paid a sick amount of money for something on y!J but I knew that going in.

I'm also sure just as many do care. No one speaks up on DOA because they can't, sadly, but they do speak up elsewhere and in private.

Take the example above of the gal who found stuff on Volks for a price less than some "helpful" people were selling it at. I'd also tell people that I saw the same thing elsewhere for X less and never deal with the opportunists again. Others may not think that dishonest behaviour, but I do. I don't like helping out people who seek to take advantage of others.

If in the end, people ignore the information and get burned... Well that is on their head, but the information needs to be available and a polite question may indeed help your sales, rather than hinder it as it seems feared.

[Songblade]

I'm amazed at the mob against Rilly. Honestly. I've done plenty of business with Rilly since I got into dolls and she's been nothing but generous, many times paying for shipping all on her own dime and even warning me off some sales that were above market price. As far as I've read, her posts haven't been whining, but conversational... and then I hit on this huge yelling and cursing spree. If you feel she's a scalper, don't do business with her. It's in your rights to also warn others about her, but what she does with her stuff is her business. Why don't you guys start a "Rilly is a scalper" thread and go back to the general discussion?

I agree with a post above: doll collecting and trading is a business. It's one of the best examples of capitalism I've ever seen! Having a place where average marketplace prices are listed is GREAT, I'm ALL for that... but it sounds like you want everyone to list at the average cost or justify if they don't. It feels that the whole phenomena moves away from being a community to being a police state.

And yes, I am defending Rilly. Bel has plenty of her own followers, I thought it'd just be fair :)

[bunnydots]

Is there actually that many people who feel ripped off or is it just the perception of others that there should be a whole stadium full of people moaning about what they paid for something afterwards.

I think some people do feel ripped off, and probably in some cases legitimately so.

But I also think there are people who see it more as an issue of community standards rather than individual satisfaction. In other words, even if some individual buyer may go in with eyes wide open and not mind paying the price, should the community provide a forum for sellers to sell at inflated prices and thus drive up the perceived market value of a doll while making profits that many perceive as unfair.

[sleep_pattern]

Bel - Please to be having my bebes? I think I love you.

Shizen - Um actually, if you want to be technical... the heads are free. Yes, thereare certain conditions. But when you pay that $330 or whatever to get the Luts event head... you're paying that $330 for other merchandise. You're not actually paying any of that money "for" the head. So while I understand the arguement of "the heads aren't free" really... they are.

[Sakura]

I'm amazed at the mob against Rilly. Honestly. I've done plenty of business with Rilly since I got into dolls and she's been nothing but generous, many times paying for shipping all on her own dime and even warning me off some sales that were above market price. As far as I've read, her posts haven't been whining, but conversational... and then I hit on this huge yelling and cursing spree.
And yes, I am defending Rilly. Bel has plenty of her own followers, I thought it'd just be fair :)

Songblade - That's wonderful that you have had good transactions of course but one must beg the question of why so many people feel this way about Rillystar if all Rilly's sales have been fair? Just wondering this and also I did not see all the cursing that you say was in this thread other than a choice word or two but maybe I didn't read the thread carefully enough ^^

Regardless of what prices are set, I think everyone has the right to question the seller without malice if they are really interested in the item. There's nothing wrong with a simple question to help a buyer research their options.

[chibaraki]

The issue *I* have with Rilly is that she presents herself as doing a great service to the fandom, when in actuality it's pretty clear to a lot of us that she's flipping and/or scalping a lot of dolls for a tidy profit. And I'm extra-steamed because she acted the exact same way in the Pinky:st fandom.

[harlowe]

Honestly Moggie, if people didn't care about pricing issues, this discussion wouldn't be happeneing. The very act of the many people voicing these concerns shows there is an issue.

I don't think a "community" can be called one, without a sense of community at it's core and people should not think that just by joining one, you now get access to a nice pool of people to gouge from. Marketplaces on community boards are generally seen as a side benefit of being in that community, not as your personal scalping arena.

The only board that I know of, that doesn't seem to support questioning pricing in it's marketplace is DoA and I'm on over a dozen boards with marketplaces. Allowing the question to be asked, keeps people more honest than shooshing everyone.

That doesn't mean being rude or obnoxious about it, but being able to openly ask questions is absolutely reasonable.

[mellie]

The issue *I* have with Rilly is that she presents herself as doing a great service to the fandom, when in actuality it's pretty clear to a lot of us that she's flipping and/or scalping a lot of dolls for a tidy profit. And I'm extra-steamed because she acted the exact same way in the Pinky:st fandom.

Exactly. I'd have less of a problem with her if it didn't happen so consistently. I mean really, a new limited is out and she has more than one, while one is supposedly "for a friend" or she "can't bond" with them. Then there was the whole limited raffle thing that set a quite a few people off.

It's hard to respect someone who uses those excuses every time.

It's obviously not just one or two people who think that way about her, there are a LOT of people in the fandom who feel that way. One person stepping up isn't going to change how many people feel.

[harlowe]

This is an example of how not being able to openly question things, turns into long-term ire towards a seller.

A seller might not ever realize their constant flipping is noticed and creating a negative reputation, which will eventually bite them in the hiney. If it's always been their intention to use a community as their person scalping/flipping marketplace free from Ebay fee's, then they should sleep in that bed.

But I'd like to get away from this being about any one person. This is about a community being able to have some transparency in their marketplace.

[mellie]

Good point, Harlowe.

[Xi-feng]

This is an example of how not being able to openly question things, turns into long-term ire towards a seller.I think this is the single best point in favour of buyers being allowed to question the prices sellers set, actually. In an environment where no word of dissent is allowed, resentment towards unfair practices builds up quickly and it goes deep. Whether that's justified or not varies on a case-by-case basis, but the result is still the same.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

But I also think there are people who see it more as an issue of community standards rather than individual satisfaction.

This is very much my view.

This is an example of how not being able to openly question things, turns into long-term ire towards a seller.

True enough.


[snip] been their intention to use a community as their person scalping/flipping marketplace free from Ebay fee's, then they should sleep in that bed.

This has been my complaint from the beginning. Far too many people see a board's marketplace as this very thing and that's not something I want to support or encourage.

[Comrade Kiskalla]

I am curious, to all those who seem to be of the notion that we shouldn't question sellers, just smile and accept whatever pricetag they toss up: When is it too much?

We've seen in the marketplace already that there are some lucky souls that have endless pockets. Should their ability to purchased an overpriced doll determine what the rest of us will have to pay? Because, as it's been pointed out quite often, there is always someone willing/able to pay the cranked up price.


To quote a 4chan meme on this one: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[miss sha]

We've seen in the marketplace already that there are some lucky souls that have endless pockets. Should their ability to purchased an overpriced doll determine what the rest of us will have to pay? Because, as it's been pointed out quite often, there is always someone willing/able to pay the cranked up price.


Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to say, just put much more eloquently than I managed. XD

[Bel]

Harlowe - This is an example of how not being able to openly question things, turns into long-term ire towards a seller.

QFE. Back to being general rather than frustrated by specific people - that's a hell of a good point.

[kuroda emi]

I think that we should police prices to a certain extent. Or marketplace content police. I hate seeing limited dolls go up for so much money.

I don't think that a company would like their items to be priced that high, especially a company like Volks (because those are the dolls that are scalped most frequently) because they try to make the dolls a really personal fun thing, not something that people use to make a pretty penny on.

It is just not fair to the people who would want that doll, and entered a raffle to get it (or something else) only to have it be won by a scalper, who only wants that doll for money. Not for the way that it looks or how much they love it.

[NightWatch]

This is an example of how not being able to openly question things, turns into long-term ire towards a seller.

Very, very true.

For those who've been insisting that doll selling is a business...that's all well and good. So why shouldn't we be allowed to ask about the price? Outside the doll hobby, bargaining and asking about the price is considered a norm but for some reason, within the doll hobby, we expect it to be a business, but no one can question the seller on almost anything. What type of business is that?

If sellers want to be treated as a real business, then they have to deal like a real business.

[Moggie]

Honestly Moggie, if people didn't care about pricing issues, this discussion wouldn't be happeneing. The very act of the many people voicing these concerns shows there is an issue.



I didn't actually say that people in general don't care. My question was more to whether or not most buyers don't care.

It seems that there are some who don't and some who do and the other responses addressed that. Another question might be, how many of those people responding to this debate feel they have been overcharged or are they in the category of people who worry for other people?

Aside from DOA, I'm also a member of a number of boards and email groups and I just don't recall mobs of people complaining that they were ripped off after buying something, hence the question. Is it a perception that people should be upset after paying too much rather than a reality?

[Bel]

One person privately mentioned elsewhere earlier today that she HAD been burned by a scalper because she didn't know any better, and was embarrassed about it.

Personally, no, I haven't felt ripped off. However, even when I've overpaid on purpose (as I mentioned waaa-haaay back in the thread) I've never tried to pass my choice to overpay onto others. Hell, I'm mad when I see Unoa option parts for sale for the prices they brought before this year's preorder. It's clear to me that people bought parts to resell, and it's equally clear that people are paying them. The blank faceplates were $45 new; people sell them for $100-$150 now.

I'll tell you all an honest truth, though, and it's a weird one. I bought a set of Unoa boobs; while I was waiting for them to arrive, I won a full-bust kit on Yj. I didn't need the boobs. I paid $50 for them, shipping included.

I posted (with excellent feedback and with in-hand photos) on DoA. I wanted $50 for them, free shipping.

No takers. I watched other unopened sets of boobs sell for $85, one set for $110.

After a week, as an experiment, I raised the price to $60. They sold the same night. (I shipped Priority insured, so I made, and yes, kept, a $2 profit. Minus the paypal fees, which I happily eat, I made less than a dollar. And I still feel bad about it, because basically I flipped those boobs.)

And that made me really wonder - are we BJD folks now so trained to see big markups that we don't *trust* at-cost sales? That they're bargains, too good to be true?

ETA - shit, I forgot the important part - I *initially* wanted $50 for them. After a couple days' worth of useless bumps, I dropped the price to $40. Still no takers. THEN I raised it to $60 as an experiment.

[harlowe]

I didn't actually say that people in general don't care. My question was more to whether or not most buyers don't care.


That's kind of a silly question, because these people that care are doll buyers. So, yes, there are plenty of people (aka buyers) that do care as they've expressed in this thread.

[Moggie]

That's kind of a silly question, because these people that care are doll buyers. So, yes, there are plenty of people (aka buyers) that do care as they've expressed in this thread.


Not really, I was talking specifically about buyers who have paid more than what people think they should, not buyers in general and I think you know that. Almost everyone on these forums is a buyer in general, unless they don't have a doll yet.

[Merry]

I've definitely paid more than I think I should have for a doll. Shortly after the Volks Tenshi line was introduced I paid nearly $1200 for a Shiratori. The company (who is still in business but now sells only their own dolls) described the Tenshi line as being Limited and they were lucky enough to have acquired a couple of each style to resell. I figured, well, I understand there's a markup if they are limited and rare!

Well, as almost every savvy ABJD aficionado knows now, one can simply walk into Tenshi no Sato and buy a Shiratori for about $800 or have a shopping service do so for them for a modest service fee. When I finally resold the doll I, of course, had to take a huge loss because I certainly wasn't going to pass the ripoff onto the next buyer!

So yes, buyers overpay AND are unhappy about it later when they find they've been tricked. I suspect many are embarrassed and/or scared to come forward and admit it. For instance, I'm sure if I named the company that overcharged me for the Shiratori I'd be verbally shredded by fans of that company. So it's no wonder people are wary of saying anything.

[Shizen]

Shizen - Um actually, if you want to be technical... the heads are free. Yes, thereare certain conditions. But when you pay that $330 or whatever to get the Luts event head... you're paying that $330 for other merchandise. You're not actually paying any of that money "for" the head. So while I understand the arguement of "the heads aren't free" really... they are.

Let me assure you that some of your $330 or whatever amount you paid them went to recouping for the cost of the promotional head/hands/dress/shoes/etc. The materials and labor utilized to bring these things to existence aren't free, after all. It's a roundabout method (as most promos are), but you still paid for that gift item.

What I was supporting with Moggie's statement was that these promotional items still have value despite what conditions/considerations were present when one acquired them (free, gift, free with purchase, raffled, etc.). That's really all I wanted to say. :)

[Bel]

Let me assure you that some of your $330 or whatever amount you paid them went to recouping for the cost of the promotional head/hands/dress/shoes/etc. The materials and labor utilized to bring these things to existence aren't free, after all. It's a roundabout method (as most promos are), but you still paid for that gift item.

Well, sure. Operating costs - including freebies - are paid by the companies, and those costs are passed on to the buyers. But Luts (for example) didn't raise the prices on their branded items when they launched the free event heads. Ie, the person who bought $300 of shoes the day before the event started should get $300 worth of shoes. The person who bought the same thing the next day got the same shoes, and a head.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

And that made me really wonder - are we BJD folks now so trained to see big markups that we don't *trust* at-cost sales? That they're bargains, too good to be true?


In a word, Yes.

[NightWatch]

Merry, thanks for sharing your experience. You're right, most people usually keep silent after it happens out of embarrassment.

[Shizen]

Well, sure. Operating costs - including freebies - are paid by the companies, and those costs are passed on to the buyers. But Luts (for example) didn't raise the prices on their branded items when they launched the free event heads. Ie, the person who bought $300 of shoes the day before the event started should get $300 worth of shoes. The person who bought the same thing the next day got the same shoes, and a head.

I guess the gift items would count as marketing expenses? These events/promos do encourage more people to buy. Shave a little profit off a transaction with a client from bundling something extra, but get more transactions overall. :)

I thought about it myself, and yeah, for me to see a well-sought limited doll being offered at it's original purchase cost is just way too good to be true. Even some auctions for such items start way above the original price.

[harlowe]

Not really, I was talking specifically about buyers who have paid more than what people think they should, not buyers in general and I think you know that. Almost everyone on these forums is a buyer in general, unless they don't have a doll yet.


I still think the answer is obvious. Ask yourself this, do you think a buyer would rather pay a reasonable or fair mark-up for their doll or be gouged?

If a person knows they were paying out the hiney, but really wanted the doll, they are probably going to be "okay" with that fact if they absolutely wanted the doll no matter how expensive it was. Now if they overpaid because they didn't know the real value, they are going to be upset - especially if they find out about it when they try to sell the doll for what they paid and get no bites or people actually letting them know "wow that's overpriced". You can say buyer beware, but this isn't Ebay or a store, this is a community. We should make every effort to make this a community, not just another doll "marketplace".

Bottom line, no one wants to pay more than fair market value. Sure people would love to get a steal, but they don't expect that, what people should be able to expect WITHIN a community is a sense of fairplay, not charity, but honest business dealings.

Now, those that over-charge or are chronic scalpers/doll flippers or take advantage of being in a community of people that love these dolls to the point of obsession (and don't want to pay Ebay fees for their scalping/price raping) are not going to like being questioned, but if you are an honest business person, the simple act of being asked about your pricing shouldn't scare you or be something to rally against.

[Comrade Kiskalla]

That's the best way to put it, Har.

A seller that is willing to answer simple questions about the product(s) being sold is going to do a hell of alot better than the one that throws a fit every time someone asks a simple question about the price. Is it really that hard to put in your initial sales post all the information you can about what you're selling? Because if you do it off the bat, then you very rarely have people playing pricing police.

[omichao]

I agree with the having people start their dolls/items at retail and letting others bid it up. If the item is modified in any way or customized, I do think the seller should be able to name their own price for that because it's not exactly the original item anymore. Then I suppose if someone didn't like any policies that were put in place, they could go to Ebay and charge whatever they wanted. A free marketplace on a board is a privilege, it shouldn't be a right to do as you please.

I pretty much agree with that. I don't think that policing is necessary in most cases. Unless something unmodified is being sold for more than say 125% of it's retail price, which is a bit high, but not completely unreasonable. For example, an 800$ doll shouldn't start at more than around 1000$

But I think that people should be able to simply, maturely point out that a price is high and ask for a reason. I completely agree that people should be allowed to say "I've seen this doll around for 200$ less than what you've got it up for. Is there anything particularily special about it that you haven't mentioned?"

I absolutely disagree with anyone that just wants to go "Jeez, double the prince, why don't you! No one would buy that, it's way too much!" and other such rude, immature complaints.

Honestly, I just think it comes down to being mature about it. If a person wants to say that the doll they're selling is rare, thus the value is increased and that's why it's marked up, that's fine. But they shouldn't be offended when people inquire, because it IS something that should be okay to question. People deserve to be able to protect themselves from scalpers and scammers without fear of being talked down at or disliked in the community for it.

[harlowe]

Exactly. =)

[Edtel]

With all due respect, I think the amount one wants to pay for a doll is a personal decision. As a buyer, I haven't appreciated it at all when an overzealous person tried to butt in and disrupt a transaction because they thought the price was too high. I understand that sometimes people are trying to be helpful, but there's an undercurrent of "this person is obviously too stupid to know that they are paying too much". Basically, I pay what I want to pay for dolls. If someone asks more than I am willing to pay at that point in time, or more than I can afford, I don't buy.
I can understand rules like "no selling for friends" - if you're going to sell something, at least own up to it. But plenty of things don't sell because they're priced too high, so the market does work, and price policing leaves way too much room for people to needlessly point fingers and impose their own version of pricing morality on everybody else whether the other people want that or not.

To go back to page 2, this pretty much sums up how I feel. I think people should be free to charge and pay what they want. There have been times when I've paid too much for something (not in this community), but in the end, the onus was on me to do some research and find out the going rate first. It was my fault entirely. We're all adults here, and we should be able to make our own decisions about how much we buy and sell for. Price policing would just open the door to too many problems.

[harlowe]

Well, we've moved beyond the whole "price policing" thing and most seem to agree that adults should be able to ask other adults sales questions, politely, openly.

In my opinion, the only ones I can see not liking that (polite questions), are probably the ones most likely to take advantage of a community they are a part of.

[Uneide]

Hm - prizes are a part of promoting the company, so they're marketing expenses. Take us at Featherfall -- we have the No naked Doll Campaign, which basically means that every doll purchased through us comes with a free, random kimono from our line.

Now - we are agents for many companies. We are bound by their prices, so we can't sell the dolls any cheaper, or any more expensive. So, we swallow the costs of the kimono because really, that's one of marketing tools to make sure we stand out from other companies selling exactly the same dolls. ;)

As a company, we don't really care if others resell the kimono. Heck, if they have no use for it, its not their dolls style, what not -- seems fair that they should profit from it. We'd have issues, if say, people were trying to sell them for a penny or something ridiculously under what we charge for a kimono on our site, but for the most part any I've seen in the secondary market have either sold at par or for a wee bit more. I think that's fair. ;)

As for asking questions -- I think you should always ask questions, as long as its done in a mature, non comfrontational manner, as someone suggested earlier.;) All sellers should be prepared to explain their pricing policy. As long as there are no witch hunts, or any such thing -- people who genuinely scalp routinely don't do it for long -- customers remember that.

[aisy]

Policing puts reins on a free market so perhaps instead of preventing an person from pricing their doll how they wish there could be a way to have the original price of the doll present. That way those purchasing can choose whether to pay inflated prices. If someone really, really wants a doll they might consider paying a large premium to own it.

[Kahli]

Let me preface by saying that I've never gotten even as much as I paid for a bjd that I've sold. When I'm ready to sell one, I want it sold quickly so I can buy someone else. That's almost always why I'm selling.

I don't like the idea of price policing. Ask for what you want- if it's worth it to even one person, then it's what the market allows. There is a free-market system that if you wanted to sell every other doll you own to be able to afford one that is rare, HTF, no longer made or just that you want really-really badly, you should be able to pay it. And if someone else benefits from my-- errr -- greed ;) then so be it!
Scalping is irritating, but some of us don't get to conventions and physical doll stores, so the only way we can get them is secondary market. I wouldn't like to pay a lot for them- but if I do want it badly enough, then I'll pay it!

As far as getting bargains: I've taken a chance on some and gotten really good deals. I've also sold some at bargain-basement prices- only to have someone else turn around and try to make a big profit on them. I'm ok with it (mostly) because I got the amount that I asked for, so I could have the money quickly. Don't be afraid of "too good to be true" because sometimes it's just a good deal.

[bunnyscotch]

I say "go for it"! At least let everyone have an idea as to what the doll(s) is/are worth so one can make an educated decision as to spend the extra bucks or not!

[javasoy]

touchy subject indeed. It's a supply-demand thing, I don't think there is a way you can regulate the price. If anything needed to be regulated, I rather have gas price regulated first.

[Honooko]

I entered Elfdoll's 'Name K' contest, and therefore was eligible for the SS K head at $50. I really loved his injured faceup, and bought him, bringing my cost to... $100, if I remember correctly.

And as soon as I paid, I realized what a dumb idea that was. Because no matter how much I liked him... I had no use for him. At all.

But there were a lot of people who DID want one, who hadn't entered the contest or hadn't been able to get one, and so I auctioned the head off starting at $100, exactly what I paid. I admit, I chose auction partially because I DID want to flip him. eBay and I have Philosophical differences and I never sell through them. But I also thought an auction would give more people a chance to get him. Sounds lame, but it was one of the reasons.

I fully recognized I flipped that boy, especially since the bidding gradually increased as three users went back and forth until it topped at $250. But I started him at the original, no profit price, not expecting a profit. Very few other sellers were selling him, and I couldn't cancel my order. I was completely upfront about how much he cost me, and always had the current highest bid posted. I don't feel like I did anything particularly dishonest. :\

Price policing makes sense in a way because some people DO jack up for bad reasons and without admitting to it. But I think the line where flipping in particular starts is hard to draw.

[diddoh]

I do not agree with Price Policing. I think that a seller should price the item for the cost they are hoping to get from it. I also don't think that they should feel obligated to post what they paid for it. I am an adult and it is my responsibility as the buyer to make an informed decision on my purchase. I have seen many beautiful dolls that I loved for sale but after doing research I realized it was not a good deal and continued searching. I have made mistakes in the past where I jumped to quickly, but it was not the sellers fault, it was mine for not taking my time and doing the proper research.

On the other issue if a seller is not being cooperative on the item and isn't answering your questions then it isn’t someone you don't want to deal with. When I'm selling an item and someone asks me a question I am always up front and answer as best I can. You choose who and what you buy.

I do agree with the idea of a thread (in the wiki?) that gives new buyers a place to find tips on where to look or what to avoid when shopping for their dolls.

[zalem]

How can you make an informed decision if you aren't allowed to ask questions concerning prices? That's what we mean by price policing here (see the OP)....not that there should be hard rules telling people what to sell things for, cause I think most agree that's going too far. But we should have the right to question.

[diddoh]

Sorry, I think it is the buyers right to ask the seller questions in a PM or email. And that includes questions on the price. And then the buyer can chose to buy from them or not depending on the sellers answers. Whenever I buy a doll I tend to ask lots of questions and one of my criteria is how easy they are to work with on answering those. If a seller refused to answer my questions then I won't buy a doll from them.

I just don't think that it has to be public knowladge on what is taking place. However a good seller will take those questions and make their thread more clear. But someone who has no intention of buying the doll doesn't need to say that I think your price is too high or should need to ask lots of questions.

[AlhanaTsuki]

I think it would be nice to be able to ask a question about a price within the thread itself. There was a case recently about a seller who had a doll up for a tiny bit higher than retail b/c she forgot what she paid. A buyer was all gung-ho about the doll, paid and then found out about the higher price, got mad and wanted their money back. A lot of accusations flew from both sides and bad blood was spilled. Now if someone had been allowed to say "oh, that doll originally sells for $___ and is still available at that price, just so you know." Then the whole incident might have been avoided.

I agree with the thought that we are trying to build a community atmosphere, not a "kill or be killed" one, so why not allow people to say in public that a price is rather high. Its still up to the buyer, they can still say "so what I want THIS one."

[pas]

As a seller, I don't mind at all where questions are asked, be it in PM, email, or the sales thread itself. As long as people are asking questions in a civil manner, I have zero problem with it. Why should I? I have nothing to hide.

To potential buyers, a seller wanting questions restricted to PMs or email makes them wonder WHY that is. Does the seller have something to hide? Should the buyer be worried about buying from them? Having questions out in the open helps earn the trust of your buyers.