Forum Markets - How to increase security?

[Hitasura]

As participants in the online community of BJDs, I'm sure that a good number of us have engaged in a good amount of purchasing and selling items online through forums, especially as it's such a great way to find unique and interesting items and often at better prices than at the larger companies.

However, there is sometimes a disturbingly high number of transactions going bad, of scammers on the loose, etc etc that can make trading on forums a risky business.

We do have feedback threads to help inform members of a seller or buyer's reputation to help this. While it is very important that all members do take care in choosing who to deal with by researching sellers and such, forum policies and guidelines can also play a big part in improving the safety of the MP. In any case, we'd very much like to hear any and all thoughts or suggestions that you may have on what steps can be taken (both as individuals and as forum policy) to help make sure that our marketplace can be as secure as possible.

So discuss! Please let us know your thoughts! ^^

[fullcircleagain]

That's a difficult question, because as forum maintainers, you definitely do not want to be in a position of being legally obligated when a transaction goes wrong. Yet still want to make people feel safe in buying and selling.

I think making a point of having the buyer and seller attempt to work out their dispute privately goes a long way, since many times it's just a communication problem. Maybe if anyone has a problem with a buyer or a seller they first contact administration before posting on the board? Not that the adminstrators would act as arbitrators but as reviewers of the appropriateness of posting whatever the dispute may be.

As moderators, you do have the right to approve or disapprove posts. Can't see anything wrong with requiring dispute posts to be reviewed first or requesting people to try and work things out privately.

That way if there is a big problem, like the woman from France who was definitely a bad seller, a specific thread could be set-up for all the people who need to either provide information or obtain it.

And it could help cut down on unnecessary bad blood and maybe result in less needed to monitor posts.

It would be nice to be able to prevent scams from happening, but impossible. Was it Cassiel who wrote the sticky about what to look for when buying on line? A sticky like that is a good reference, especially for people who are rather new, and also shows the forum is concerned with providing a safe market place.

Good luck with this!

[Xi-feng]

It's a bit uncreative (and relatively useless at this point since the bulk of the forum has only just joined up and hasn't had time to make all that muhc of a post-count yet) but I wonder if in a few months it might be worth going the way of DoA and upping the required post-count/amount of time spent on the boards. I know I spammed around fifteen posts or so in the first hour of joining just in the "just joined, whee!" excitement, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to do so. Makes marketplace access very easy - which is good, but at the same time not the most secure thing, either. Of course there's also the point that people who've just joined may already be known on DoA as being extremely reputable sellers, so I suppose this isn't the best solution either.

(And somewhat OT, but I hope it's okay to ask this here also. I really hope we won't get too many of these people here and trying this on, but what's Resinality's policy on calling out scalpers? I know DoA is very strict on the 'no price policing' and so we see people trying to sell dolls for far more than they perhaps should, sometimes. I'd like to think that it might be possible to mention something on this forum if we think an item is vastly overpriced, but of course I think we'd all prefer some sort of policy statement on this one before the need to do so arises ^^) ...However, on second thoughts a marketplace that's self-policing among members may also be a more secure one, come to think of it. How many people have we seen scamming on DoA who might have been caught sooner if people had been allowed to speak up in their threads? I think a reputation that members were watching the marketplace closely for infractions and willing/allowed to mention those infractions directly in sales threads might go some way towards increased security, possibly.

[callior]

Honest feedback!

Both in problem situations, where only people who are either involved in the transaction (buyer and seller, no family members, friends or household pets) or have unopiniated advice (not "I think what she did was very rotten. Have you tried contacting the police?" but "Have you tried contacting the police?") are allowed to comment.

Where it's forbidden to say things like "I had a good transaction with person A". You did? Great, please leave that kind of comments in his or her feedback thread. But please also leave negative and neutral feedback in the feedback thread.

If someone is slow to ship things out, tell about it. If the items weren't well enough packed, tell about it. If one of the shoes arrived broken, and the seller refunded you, tell about it. Because willingness to fix problems are more important to me as a buyer than the fact that someone has never had a problem before.

Of cause you should attempt to solve any issues you may have with the seller before leaving feedback, but at the same time this isn't ebay. Neutral feedback won't make you a non-perfect seller.

Also, we as a hobby need to get tougher. If an item worth more than $100 don't arrive, go to paypal. If they can't resolve the situation, go to the police. It is theft, and I personally can't believe how people are patient enough to let a stranger or someone they only know through the internet keep money from them for months because they "want to be patient".

ETA: As for scalpers, I must admidt I was ashamed when someone who hardly knew the hobby described DoA as a scalpers den. Another board I'm on (for a band) allows sales only if you sell for the price you bought the tickets at, and merch with limited increase in price. It would be too difficult to do that in this hobby, but at the same time, I enjoyed their idea of "we are not here to help you make money. Take it to ebay."

[Karhys]

Thanks for the feedback so far! I just wanted to briefly note a couple of things:

We had, for the moment been considering the post count largely to catch the IP addresses (the easiest way to deal with repeat offenders) plus with the pre-open we had a fairly trustworthy userbase -- but you are right, it also helps show who the user is, and also that they are legit and not just spamming for Market access. With this in mind (but only 2 mods currently around to make decisions) we've temporarily upped it to 25 posts needed and will probably up it more once we can get more mods in to discuss the idea.

I'm working on a couple of stickies for the Market - Feedback sub-forum, including some of the info I'd originally written up for DoA, as well as a Known Scammers that I'm compiling. (Which I hope some of you may be able to help me with once I post what I've got so far. If we know them, we can watch out for them!)

We've also added a rule to the rules list (http://www.abjds.com/forum/rules.php) that we meant to add earlier, which is a blanket ban on pre-sales. I've always felt that this is one of the easiest things to implement that puts that first initial dampner on flipping/scalping. There's also a rule - or rather a warning - now added, that repeat offenders will lose their Market access. (In addition, we may keep a public list of them.)

We're definitely taking all advice into consideration here - we really want to do our best to make a secure, safe environment for you all. We'll get back to you to discuss it more soon, but I just wanted to make those notes now.

[fullcircleagain]

I just wanted to address the issue of price policing, since all of the forums I looked at do not allow it. I was hesitant to write anything but I do feel an intellegent discussion with different viewpoints hopefully will be allowed.

In regard to tickets to events, there are laws that state they are not to be sold for a higher value, which would be the reason why a board where tickets are sold has that rule. There is no such law regarding the selling of collectables.

With price policing you will have fewer items for sale since sellers will sell where their items have value and where they will not be innudated by pms and posts by others who decide what they think the seller should sell the item for.

You will end up paying a higher price for the items elsewhere since sellers then have to pay to sell their items. If sellers don’t have to pay fees, they are more likely to sell the item at a lower price.

The reason the values are high for some dolls is not because of scalping. Scalping is a totally different subject where someone buys all of an item and prevents others from buying it. The price is high because of the market, because people are willing to pay a higher price. If people didn’t pay those prices the dolls wouldn’t be listed at those prices. There are way more dolls that end up being sold for less than what the seller paid for, because there is a glut in the market.

If you don’t like the price of something, don’t buy it. Simple as that. That is what is stated at many of the other forums I looked at. Often if no one buys the seller will reduce the price voluntarily.

[Em]

I have to agree with fullcircleagain. I think it would too tricky to allow price policing. What falls under the term 'scalping' within this hobby seems to be subjective in a lot of cases. I feel at the end of the day you pay what you feel is fair.

[lyrajean]

As far as market security goes, I think displaying user post counts is a good thing. Yes, I know a want to be scammer can spam the board with meanlingless posts to drive up their count; but as a general guide, it is something to consider when deciding if you trust someone enought to make a purchase, or a big purchase.

Taken together with board, DOA or Ebay feedback and owner pics, etc... I'd feel more confident buying from someone who's user post count is 500 rather than 30 if i don't know them from elsewhere. Particularly if it is a $900 doll. A $20 pair of shoes, maybe I'd take a gamble on someone I do not know, if their pics and post info looks good.

[rottenlullaby]

lyrajean has a point, when shopping on doa before the feedback system was implemented I used to look at join date and post count if I was buying something. Usually if someone was a longtime hobby member they were more reputable than a new member and you just felt safer buying form them.

I think thats a little harder now though because of the way things have changed in the hobby and wont be as effective for this borad since so many member all signed up at the same time . If anything we just have to get good feedback started form the get-go and hope that a high post count to get into the marketplace will deter scammers form spamming their way in.

[miss sha]

I have to agree with being able to call people out on scalping. If nothing else, at least extremely obvious cases of it. There are people on DoA right now selling Amakusa and Crystal and Nono for $1200. They have the dolls in hand, so the pre-sale rule doesn't help here.

I definitely agree that the way to stop them is to not buy at those prices, but the problem is that there is almost always someone who can, will, and does buy at the price, so they get away with it and can do it another day.

[Cynthia]

For me, two things seem most important from both a buyer's and a seller's point of view:

--first, a shared mod/community attitude that bad behavior (in buying or selling alike) isn't "cute" or excusable on the basis of immaturity or ignorance--or because no actual crime has been committed. Quite honestly, I don't see the out-and-out crimes as being nearly as widespread a problem as the pervasive rudeness and unreliability in online marketplaces. The crimes are far, far, FAR more severe problems, of course! I don't mean to downplay them at all. But in terms of actual numbers of incidents, it seems to me that "flakiness" (I would use a stronger word, myself) affects a lot more people a lot more often.

I agree with everyone who's said that a smaller community with an age threshold is more likely to self-police, and to establish community standards of behavior for any marketplace dealings.


--second, I would beg the mods on my knees to encourage members to post *all* feedback, bad and good, in each person's single, main feedback thread. Yes, there should also be special warning threads for serious crimes, active scammers, and other spectacular problems. There will be some duplication here; I don't think that's a bad thing at all. But if reports of sub-criminal bad transactions are fenced off in a separate forum, I think--no, I *know*, because I've run into this more than once--bad/lazy/careless/unethical behavior gets enabled or at least glossed over, instead of discouraged. The glowing feedback in the "main" thread is all that anyone notices. I mean, who actually checks the problem-transactions forum after reading 20 or 30 gushing positive feedbacks on someone? Not many people, I would guess (and I include myself, for sure).

If I lose it completely and start taking three weeks to mail things that people have paid for, then I should be called out on it publicly, right alongside the positive feedback from the times when I did the right thing. And potential buyers or sellers should know that I'm inconsistent; it's only fair on both sides.

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I have to agree with being able to call people out on scalping. If nothing else, at least extremely obvious cases of it.

There is a group of repeat offenders who do this every Dolpa, every limited. I see no reason to support these people as they are basically preying on us.

For me, two things seem most important from both a buyer's and a seller's point of view:

--first, a shared mod/community attitude that bad behavior (in buying or selling alike) isn't "cute" or excusable on the basis of immaturity or ignorance--or because no actual crime has been committed.

Yes! The flakiness that is tolerated in some places makes me crazy. I at least want to know if someone is a flake so I can decide if dealing with it is worth it to me or not.


-second, I would beg the mods on my knees to encourage members to post *all* feedback, bad and good, in each person's single, main feedback thread. Yes, there should also be special warning threads for serious crimes, active scammers, and other spectacular problems. There will be some duplication here; I don't think that's a bad thing at all. But if reports of sub-criminal bad transactions are fenced off in a separate forum, I think--no, I *know*, because I've run into this more than once--bad/lazy/careless/unethical behavior gets enabled or at least glossed over, instead of discouraged. The glowing feedback in the "main" thread is all that anyone notices. I mean, who actually checks the problem-transactions forum after reading 20 or 30 gushing positive feedbacks on someone? Not many people, I would guess (and I include myself, for sure).

QFE although I have to admit, the first place I look for feedback is in the problem area.


If I lose it completely and start taking three weeks to mail things that people have paid for, then I should be called out on it publicly, right alongside the positive feedback from the times when I did the right thing. And potential buyers or sellers should know that I'm inconsistent; it's only fair on both sides.

Again QFE.

[eveshka]

One of my concerns is fixed with Resinality... under 18. A lot of them are honest, but legally, they aren't liable. If you buy a $2000 Volks Limited from a 15 year old and don't get it... you're out many legal options as they are underage.

[koi]

Post feedback, please! All kinds of feedback: positive, negative and neutral. This is one of the best ways, IMHO, to increase security and people's peace of mind. As long as the feedback is based on truth and can be verified if need be, then it should be posted for the entire community to read.

If the information is available to everyone, then it's easier for people to make an educated decision on who to deal with and who to avoid.

I think this can be done in a courteous and to-the-point way even when posting negative feedback. Stick to the facts as you know them, only post if you can back up what you are saying, people who are not involved need not comment, and absolutely no personal attacks.
We are dealing with people, even if anonymously. Sometimes misunderstandings happen, and what appeared as a bad transaction can be the result of a miscommunication, so be polite even if upset. Not only for the people involved but also for the people who will read your thread.

I think this would give everyone equal opportunity to voice their concerns, clear up any misunderstanding and most importantly, weed out bad business practices. Plus, posting feedback also increases your sense of community. By openly sharing your experiences, you feel that are not alone stuck in a bad situation.

My two cents...

[astrosnik]

Forum attitude is the best way to encourage safe marketplace activity. Feedback threads are only resourceful when buyers and sellers feel free to comment openly about a transaction. Too often I think users get caught up with protecting their own reputation and are hesitant to post negative or neutral feedback. I almost wonder if users should be forced into accessing the market through the feedback forums, I'd actually like to see a mandatory setting (in profiles?) for every marketplace transaction, with a box for marking feedback. (ie ebay, etsy) A lot of users think "Oh well, it's only a $2 sale" and don't bother with feedback, when it sets up a pattern of behavior for a seller or buyer. This may not be possible on this type of forum, though. D:

[Bel]

Astrosnik has a great point re: forum attitude. I think we've all seen private Lj posts or other off-forum complaints where, even in private, the poster won't name names.

Honest feedback helps everyone. When I first started selling, I merrily went out and bought pretty tissue paper and stupid little flower stickers to use to wrap the item, so the buyer'd have a nice package to open. I wrapped a netted white fiber wig in pink tissue paper. The wig wasn't injured, but the buyer kindly PMd me to warn me that the pink might stain, and I shouldn't use it. That was a total "duh" moment for me - she was exactly right, and it had never even occurred to me. If she hadn't said something, I might have later ruined someone's outfit with my pink paper.

However, if I'd responded to her PM snottily - not caring about her comment and fully intending on sticking with my pink tissue paper - she should have left feedback that warned future buyers that I was a pink-paper-using jerk.

[halfling]

Agreeing with those above me: Create a forum environment where it is OK to question. Question the seller, question the buyer, even question past customers publicly. DoA seemed to crack down too hard on confrontations, and in part because of the, there were some people who got away with unsavory business practices for way, way, way too long.

Just KNOWING that if you try to sell damaged merchandise you will get called on it will help deter a lot of bad business. For those of you who are worried about rudeness, there are ways of pointing out problem transactions that do NOT involve personal attacks, name calling, or opening up a whole can of drama llamas. Most people can be mature about pointing out problem transactions, or will go back and edit their posts once they cooled off.

[redfish]

Agreed on most of what people have said. Unfortunately, purchasing through online affairs is always hard to be 100% sure that the person or company is being completely truthful. Making the only reason to my knowledge, is to rely on feedback. Allow users to have a place for bad feedback and/or warnings not to buy from someone if they have had a particularly nasty transaction. Don't buy or sell to somebody with no feedback from a reliable source (like eBay, or in most cases DoA). Make sure they are using a reliable payment method in which you can get your money back.

I also really like the idea of allowing people to be open about transactions, and questioning the item(s) that are being sold. Just be sure it is kept friendly~ and that the seller/buyer has a chance to redeem themselves to show that they are in fact selling/buying in an honest matter. In otherwise, honest until proven guilty.

[Lizzard]

Would it be possible to cross-reference feedback on this site with feedback given on DoA, DoD, Loosely Strung, and so on? A lot of times the bad feedback is out there, but because it hasn't been copied over to new sites, new victims get caught in the snare.

I know there are lots of warnings about bad sellers and buyers on DoA and DoD, especially. It would really help make the marketplace here more secure if known problem users could be identified outright, without having to wait for them to cause trouble for someone this forum.

To be fair, I offer this suggestion without the slightest idea how it could be carried out. But it's something to chew on.

[koi]

Would it be possible to cross-reference feedback on this site with feedback given on DoA, DoD, Loosely Strung, and so on? A lot of times the bad feedback is out there, but because it hasn't been copied over to new sites, new victims get caught in the snare.

I know there are lots of warnings about bad sellers and buyers on DoA and DoD, especially. It would really help make the marketplace here more secure if known problem users could be identified outright, without having to wait for them to cause trouble for someone this forum.

To be fair, I offer this suggestion without the slightest idea how it could be carried out. But it's something to chew on.

I think this is an excellent suggestion.

It gives people who deserve the negative feedback a warning and it gives people who have received negative feedback out of spite an opportunity to openly question said feedback. It also publicly exposes those who like to retaliate by giving negative feedback as the @@sholes that they are.

[nikita]

Would it be possible to cross-reference feedback on this site with feedback given on DoA, DoD, Loosely Strung, and so on? A lot of times the bad feedback is out there, but because it hasn't been copied over to new sites, new victims get caught in the snare.

I know there are lots of warnings about bad sellers and buyers on DoA and DoD, especially. It would really help make the marketplace here more secure if known problem users could be identified outright, without having to wait for them to cause trouble for someone this forum.

To be fair, I offer this suggestion without the slightest idea how it could be carried out. But it's something to chew on.

We can add extra fields in the member profile for the feedback threads on DoA, DoDe and other forums (just let us know what other forums). For DoDe, I don't think you can view unless you're a member? It would probably be more helpful if that section was viewable to the public.

[Hitasura]

Would it be possible to cross-reference feedback on this site with feedback given on DoA, DoD, Loosely Strung, and so on? A lot of times the bad feedback is out there, but because it hasn't been copied over to new sites, new victims get caught in the snare.

I know there are lots of warnings about bad sellers and buyers on DoA and DoD, especially. It would really help make the marketplace here more secure if known problem users could be identified outright, without having to wait for them to cause trouble for someone this forum.

To be fair, I offer this suggestion without the slightest idea how it could be carried out. But it's something to chew on.

This is a good idea! As of right now, we do have a profile field set up on the forum where you can place a link to your feedback in the same way DoA has done. Granted, there is only one spot, so as of right now members can only put in a link to one place where their feedback is posted. (Here, DoA, Ebay, etc.) But we could set it up to allow multiple feedback links to be posted. ^^

And of course, an easier way is to post feedback links to all your feedback on ebay and other forums in sales/feedback threads here as well, so I do encourage all members to do this! =3

(I'm not sure if that's exactly what you meant, but it's definitely something that can be discussed further as well!)

Edit: Haha, Jo beat me to it. XD

[Karhys]

Would it be possible to cross-reference feedback on this site with feedback given on DoA, DoD, Loosely Strung, and so on? A lot of times the bad feedback is out there, but because it hasn't been copied over to new sites, new victims get caught in the snare.

I know there are lots of warnings about bad sellers and buyers on DoA and DoD, especially. It would really help make the marketplace here more secure if known problem users could be identified outright, without having to wait for them to cause trouble for someone this forum.

To be fair, I offer this suggestion without the slightest idea how it could be carried out. But it's something to chew on.

In addition to what Nikita and Hitasura said above (and we can definitely add multiple Feedback fields to profiles) I also wanted to mention again that I'm working on a Known Scammers sticky that will list hopefully some of the biggest problem names in the scene, and will link to any relevant info on them, no matter what forum it's on. (Although I don't have a list of the DoDe (or any other forum) threads, so if there's any really good scammer stickies/threads that you have direct links to, a PM of these would be fantastic! From anyone. :) If I don't get a PM I'll look it up later myself -- I just already knew where most of the DoA stuff was and remembered the transactions as well. ;))

I had wanted to get this list up before we officially launched but Uni is kicking my butt. However I'll get it up ASAP (hopefully by tomorrow) and at that time, if anyone has any additions to the list I'll be greatly appreciative.

We can also link to things like the Problem Transactions Index at DoA, though I am unsure of how many people actually used that? There seemed to be a lot more problem transactions posted about than got listed. :oops

I was thinking in the Known Scammers list to possibly have a list of links to all the places in the ABJD community where feedback is posted, so that if you're unsure about someone, you can easily go and research everywhere, not just here. What do you guys think? Maybe this would even be better as a sticky itself? Actually I was considering a general "buying/selling safely and helping keep the community safe" sticky which laid out some of the important things to keep in mind, perhaps I could put it in there. I'm still working out the best ideas for the feedback forums. (The forum at large is and probably will always be a work-in-progress...!)

Other than that (this was just the easiest thing for me to answer right off!) I'm compiling a list of things to consider for the Market area, based on everything you've all been posting so far. You all have great ideas, some of which are things I'd not considered as much so please -- keep the ideas and discussion of them coming. Every time someone reported a transaction on DoA where they'd been scammed, I felt sick at heart knowing that it had happened. I realise that in reality we can't prevent every scam that occurs, but I'd really like to make our Market as safe a place as possible, and encourage everyone to post all of their feedback. And even not just outright scamming; I'd like people to be upfront about any bad business practice that they come across in the hopes that we can discourage it.

[Shankula]

Astrosnik has a great point re: forum attitude. I think we've all seen private Lj posts or other off-forum complaints where, even in private, the poster won't name names.

Honest feedback helps everyone. When I first started selling, I merrily went out and bought pretty tissue paper and stupid little flower stickers to use to wrap the item, so the buyer'd have a nice package to open. I wrapped a netted white fiber wig in pink tissue paper. The wig wasn't injured, but the buyer kindly PMd me to warn me that the pink might stain, and I shouldn't use it. That was a total "duh" moment for me - she was exactly right, and it had never even occurred to me. If she hadn't said something, I might have later ruined someone's outfit with my pink paper.

However, if I'd responded to her PM snottily - not caring about her comment and fully intending on sticking with my pink tissue paper - she should have left feedback that warned future buyers that I was a pink-paper-using jerk.

I just had to post and say that your 'pink paper using jerk' made me lol...and I agree reluctantly agree with others that we should have the join date and number of posts displayed. On one hand I don't like it, it makes it like 'ooh, look at how active I am, sucka! Whurz ur posts?' but on the other hand, I think it is a very good tool for gauging someone's familiarity and dedication to the bjd community. And I *LOVE* that this forum is 18+...no offense to those under 18, but when I was younger, I had verbal diarreah worse and did the type before I think thing way too many times...so THANK YOU for making this an 18+ site.

[Rhian]

...and I agree reluctantly agree with others that we should have the join date and number of posts displayed. On one hand I don't like it, it makes it like 'ooh, look at how active I am, sucka! Whurz ur posts?' but on the other hand, I think it is a very good tool for gauging someone's familiarity and dedication to the bjd community.
Post counts are displayed if you click through to someone's profile page - we didn't want to remove it completely, because it's really essential for Market users. :)

[opal]

One of my concerns is fixed with Resinality... under 18. A lot of them are honest, but legally, they aren't liable. If you buy a $2000 Volks Limited from a 15 year old and don't get it... you're out many legal options as they are underage.

Yup, this was something I was going to mention as well. Sure, some may lie about their age, but there are consequences if they're discovered. This is a good thing. :)

[celestia]

Like some discussion earlier on another thread; a reviews thread would be really nice.
One where a person reviews a particular person/store/commission and rates it according to set criteria set by the moderators of this forum.

That way people can read up on things and owners themselves can see where they need to improve.

This would take care of people who want to do business and it would certainly stablise the security for others... the more a person reads; the more a person would want to deal with the business; some harder-to-detect scammers blend right with the crowd... and would be tempted to buy off this forum; the more chance we have of obtaining their details and perhaps any stolen items/currency. I don't know the legality of this; but if it's listed in the terms and conditions that these things might need to be kept on file if a person *does* offend, then that's security right there ?

[bunnydots]

If there are people who are known for repeated bad deals (e.g. don't deliver the goods) or unacceptable business practices (e.g. flipping Dolpa dolls after every Dolpa, reneging on deals, etc.) will they just be banned - perhaps in advance of them even trying to join and transact?

If the main concern really is about a group of scammers repeatedly engaging in bad tricks, then why should we even let those people in the Marketplace to begin with? They're perfectly free to go sell somewhere else like eBay or even private sales, if someone really wants to buy.

[celestia]

Is it possible to ban those already known for scamming in DoA or is the process going to have to repeat itself here before they can be caught? :\

[Hitasura]

Is it possible to ban those already known for scamming in DoA or is the process going to have to repeat itself here before they can be caught? :\

Yes, we have already banned emails and IPs from know/past scammers that have been caught, so hopefully we won't be seeing any of them around here! And as Cassiel has already mentioned, we're writing up a list with the details on these scammers to post in the feedback section later to help further inform members so they can keep a better eye out for them. ^^

[mellie]

I think the feedback thing is really important.

If you take Ebay as an example, a lot of sellers no longer post feedback until after the buyer does to discourage the buyer from leaving negative feedback. If the buyer leaves negative feedback, the seller retaliates. That's not cool. A buyer's obligation is to pay for the item. Once it's paid for, feedback should be left. I mean, at least there's some accountability because the buyer can respond to negative feedback, but still.

Encouraging people to leave honest feedback is important. A lot of buyers may not want to leave neutral or negative feedback for fear of retaliation. If there's a problem, the buyers should mention it. Similarly, if there's a problem with the payment, the seller should mention it. Buyers and sellers should also be able to comment about any feedback they feel they received in error. At least that way it'd be up to people viewing the feedback to decide if the person is worth dealing with.

That being said, I think aside from encouraging honest feedback, there should be some feedback guidelines. Good feedback for a good transaction, neutral feedback in cases where the seller may be slow to ship, or the buyer may be slow to pay, but the rest of the transaction is good (items are well packaged, payment is made in full), and negative feedback for major issues. Broken dolls, ripped clothes, horrible packaging, a month wait for an item that should have been shipped earlier. Stuff like that?

[sgtgeorgecarter]

If there are people who are known for repeated bad deals (e.g. don't deliver the goods) or unacceptable business practices (e.g. flipping Dolpa dolls after every Dolpa, reneging on deals, etc.) will they just be banned - perhaps in advance of them even trying to join and transact?

If the main concern really is about a group of scammers repeatedly engaging in bad tricks, then why should we even let those people in the Marketplace to begin with?

I'm with you here. I'd prefer to just see these people not get market privileges at all.

[Tiarah]

One of my concerns is fixed with Resinality... under 18. A lot of them are honest, but legally, they aren't liable. If you buy a $2000 Volks Limited from a 15 year old and don't get it... you're out many legal options as they are underage.

I agree - While I've never had any major problems with my transactions (knock on wood), it does make me feel a bit better to know I'm at least protected by dealing with people of legal age. :)

[Lizzard]

This is a good idea! As of right now, we do have a profile field set up on the forum where you can place a link to your feedback in the same way DoA has done....

This is great, for those who are proud of their feedback and want to share it. But the people whose feedback we most need to see -- the scammers, the flakes, the liars, and so on -- are unlikely to put a link in their profile to their bad feedback.

I had in mind something along the lines of a third party collecting names and links to negative feedback on other sites, and posting them in a sticky that's updated once a week (or something like that). That way, no one will be able to dodge their negative reputation by starting shenanigans again on a fresh forum.

It would take some legwork, but I think it's important if we really want to make the Marketplace as secure as possible. I'm sure some volunteers could be found to maintain the list.

[nikita]

Just to let everyone know, we have now added additional fields under Contact Info for your DoA and Ebay feedback! Just go to your UserCP and add them under Edit Profile!

[callior]

I started a "Bad Sellers" list over at DoD where people have posted information of, amongst other things, scammers. If it can be of any use for you, just copy the information over here. Unfortunately a lot of the information is in older versions of DoD, where you need to be registered to be allowed in, but I hope that won't be to much of a problem.

The list can be found here: http://www.denofdemons.org/showthread.php?t=735

[TammyTammy]

To be honest, I don't think you can really do anything. I have seen excellent sellers go bad all of a sudden and I have seen terrible sellers go good. Feedback and the number of posts a person has don't mean much, really. A good seller turned bad will always have their friends stand up for them, saying that the seller is ill, or has fallen on hard times and will hop to it soon.

[TammyTammy]

I started a "Bad Sellers" list over at DoD where people have posted information of, amongst other things, scammers. If it can be of any use for you, just copy the information over here. Unfortunately a lot of the information is in older versions of DoD, where you need to be registered to be allowed in, but I hope that won't be to much of a problem.

The list can be found here: http://www.denofdemons.org/showthread.php?t=735

I have seen that list! I would not take anything from there seriously, since many of the posters are angry, vindictive people that have only heard about someone, or assume something about someone and it's all false. True, there is a scammer or two on the list, but most of the people on that list do not deserve to be there at all!

[sgtgeorgecarter]

I have seen that list! I would not take anything from there seriously, since many of the posters are angry, vindictive people that have only heard about someone, or assume something about someone and it's all false. True, there is a scammer or two on the list, but most of the people on that list do not deserve to be there at all!

I'd have to disagree there. That list is very similar to mine, and a PITA seller is just as awful as a scammer. I also notice that many of the entries have links to threads explaining the reason for the listing.

If the reason for the bad listing isn't a problem for you, then by all means deal with them. But if not, its a fair warning.

[TammyTammy]

I'd have to disagree there. That list is very similar to mine, and a PITA seller is just as awful as a scammer. I also notice that many of the entries have links to threads explaining the reason for the listing.

You're not on the list...

[zalem]

I have seen that list! I would not take anything from there seriously, since many of the posters are angry, vindictive people that have only heard about someone, or assume something about someone and it's all false. True, there is a scammer or two on the list, but most of the people on that list do not deserve to be there at all!

If they have links to threads explaining why the person is a scammer then people can go judge for themselves whether or not they believe it. I find the list over there extremely useful.

[Rhian]

I think that a list of known (and serious) scammers is very important, but I would personally not group them with the lesser offenders in the way that list does. Placing the actual criminals alongside those who have only taken too long to ship some items (which is obviously not good, but is not at all on the same scale) seems a bit confusing to me. The general logic behind it is sound, though, and a list of scammers is extremely important for any community. The lesser offenders should receive bad feedback, of course, if they have not completed a deal to satisfaction, but I wouldn't put half those people next to names like Celyne22.

[TammyTammy]

If they have links to threads explaining why the person is a scammer then people can go judge for themselves whether or not they believe it. I find the list over there extremely useful.

I know a lot of people on that list and have successfully dealt with them and know others that have also successfully dealt with them, also I know a lot of the people who wrote the stuff about them and most of it is either false or highly exaggerated.
I know some who's reputations have been needlessly ruined as a result of people believing what they've read there.
This is a fun hobby, that doesn't need that kind thing... :cry

[TammyTammy]

I think that a list of known (and serious) scammers is very important, but I would personally not group them with the lesser offenders in the way that list does. Placing the actual criminals alongside those who have only taken too long to ship some items (which is obviously not good, but is not at all on the same scale) seems a bit confusing to me. The general logic behind it is sound, though, and a list of scammers is extremely important for any community. The lesser offenders should receive bad feedback, of course, if they have not completed a deal to satisfaction, but I wouldn't put half those people next to names like Celyne22.

I totally agree here; you hit it on the nail, Rhian!
The strange thing is that some of the so called "less offenders" there have NOT received a negative feedback, which just makes me believe that the reason they are on the list is completely false and is due to either the vindictiveness of a person suffering buyer's remorse, an envy issue or some wrong information or assumption.

[zalem]

I think that a list of known (and serious) scammers is very important, but I would personally not group them with the lesser offenders in the way that list does. Placing the actual criminals alongside those who have only taken too long to ship some items (which is obviously not good, but is not at all on the same scale) seems a bit confusing to me. The general logic behind it is sound, though, and a list of scammers is extremely important for any community. The lesser offenders should receive bad feedback, of course, if they have not completed a deal to satisfaction, but I wouldn't put half those people next to names like Celyne22.

Yeah, the likes of Celyne22 and Kakyuu are sort of in a category of their own. So if there is one thing that should be done with that list it's to break it up and separate the known scammers from people who have just earned negative feedback due to slow shipping or something.

And just because one person happens to have a good deal with another, doesn't make that other person a good seller. Look at Kakyuu....there were several people who had perfectly good deals with her, but then there were those obviously very bad deals as well. People need to see the good and the bad feedback to judge for themselves whether they want to deal with people.

Oh and even if a person seems to have flawless feedback, it doesn't hurt to ask around to make sure. Kakyuu had 100% feedback too before the shit hit the fan. Same thing goes with Vanillashine, who still has yet to refund me my money. So no, just because someone seems to have 100% perfect feedback doesn't mean they are actually perfect. It could simply be that people were too intimidated to come forward. That's exactly what the case was for Vanillashine. There were several people who had bad dealings with her, but were bullied by her friends so they never left feedback. But I'm hoping things will be different here. People will be more open to leaving feedback and understand how important it is for the community. Feedback is absolutely vital for buyers to make informed decisions.

[Tez]

If they have links to threads explaining why the person is a scammer then people can go judge for themselves whether or not they believe it. I find the list over there extremely useful.
Agreeing. The vast majority of sellers on that list have links to back up the assertions, and in many cases there's more than one link. DoA has that list of problem transactions that just indexes anything that's ever ended up in the PT subforum, but you have to REALLY earn your way onto DoD's list.

Also disagreeing with the assertion that people end up there purely because everyone who posts to that board is an angry vindictive person. I've added one company to that list, and believe you me, they deserve to be there. If I'd taken a gander at the list before ordering and followed the links for the seller I was dealing with, I could have saved myself three months of major issues with $300 on the line.

EDIT: zalem, I swear, you have a great way of wording exactly what I was thinking. XD The first line of your second paragraph nailed it right on the head -- just because one person had a good deal with another doesn't make the other person a good seller. I checked my problem-seller's feedback and saw zilch bad -- because NOBODY HAD POSTED ABOUT THE NEGATIVE DEALS. Big huge issue, imho.

[mellie]

I know a lot of people on that list and have successfully dealt with them and know others that have also successfully dealt with them, also I know a lot of the people who wrote the stuff about them and most of it is either false or highly exaggerated.
I know some who's reputations have been needlessly ruined as a result of people believing what they've read there.
This is a fun hobby, that doesn't need that kind thing... :cry

The list is to warn others. You don't have to follow the warnings, and you don't have to believe them. However, to claim that most of the people who added things to the list are vindictive and angry, or that these claims are false and exaggerated, annoys me. If someone has a bad transaction with someone, are they supposed to ignore it because previous transactions have been okay?

A bad transaction is a bad transaction. Period. No one should keep silent about bad transactions just because that person may have had good transactions in the past.

The only thing that can ruin a seller's reputation is the seller and his or her actions. A list can't do it. Someone else's opinions can't do it. If the seller screws up, and someone makes the decision to call the seller on it, that's the seller's fault, no one else's.

[Guide]

[quote=TammyTammy;8664]I know a lot of people on that list and have successfully dealt with them and know others that have also successfully dealt with them, also I know a lot of the people who wrote the stuff about them and most of it is either false or highly exaggerated.
I know some who's reputations have been needlessly ruined as a result of people believing what they've read there.
This is a fun hobby, that doesn't need that kind thing... :cry

Yeah, but a fun hobby can be ruined by a few bad transactions- not just for the seller losing their reputation, but for the buyer.

I have had good transactions with some of the people on that list too. As a pretty well entrenched member of DoA and DoD I have done more than enough dealing to have crossed paths with most people. But that does not make everything on the list 'either false or highly exagerrated.'

Its just like the bad feedback threads on DoA, only it covers more and is all in one place. If someone has a bad transaction, they warn others. People have the right to say they are dissatisfied even with resolved issues, and it allows others to go into transactions fully aware of everything that might happen, based on the experiences of others. And that is a good thing- too many times bad feedback has popped up on DoA, and suddenly -as if by magic- eight or nine other people all show up who have sxperienced the same thing in the past from that seller. Imagine how many fewer people would go through that kind of disspointment if they had spoken up sooner. essentially, that is all the thread is.

It is not the be-all and end-all of the hobby, just a bunch of friends helping each other to avoide the kind of dissapointment that really can ruin this hobby.

[callior]

I've actually bought from several sellers that are on that list. It went ok, but I got into the sale knowing about past trouble and I was able to choose whether or not I wanted to take the risk of the sale going bad. Some of the people on that list are people who needs to be avoided at all costs (FinFin, Kazakai) and you'll noticed that these are in most cases already banned from DoA.

If you want to defend yourself, this isn't the place to do it. If you want to avoid DoD, you can PM me and I'll post whatever you wish to say. I will also link to this in the list on the first page, if you want to, so we'll have both sides of the story.

ETA: I've split the list into scammers/other serious problems, scalpers and "other". Hope it's a bit easier to navigate now ^^

[Lady Brick]

ETA: I've split the list into scammers/other serious problems, scalpers and "other". Hope it's a bit easier to navigate now ^^

Thank you for that... it is much easier to read now.

Although BJDs are very much a fun, close knit hobby, it is a hobby that involves hundreds if not thousands of dollars. It's important to have feedback on transactions, even when it's negative and hurts people feelings.

You're not on the list...

Are you saying you are on the list? I don't see a TammyTammy there, so if you are, it's under another name. If you're trying to defend either yourself or another seller, aiming for a blanket discredit isn't going to help your cause. One of the keys to providing accurate feedback, positive or negative, is being specific.

[syrinx]

I know a lot of people on that list and have successfully dealt with them and know others that have also successfully dealt with them, also I know a lot of the people who wrote the stuff about them and most of it is either false or highly exaggerated.
I know some who's reputations have been needlessly ruined as a result of people believing what they've read there.
This is a fun hobby, that doesn't need that kind thing... :cry

Den of Demons may be a "wank and snark" community, but the important thing is, it's a community. People watch out for each other there just as much as anywhere else. They are all buyers and sellers as well and don't generally call people out unless there is a good reason to do so. That list has extensive links that carry over to DoA. If the links and reasons didn't exist, they wouldn't be on that list. Also, people will defend others on that list as well. I know I personally have defended a few people on that list because I had transactions with them that were fine.

As a seller who values her own reputation within the community, I believe that list is just as good as any other out there and is a valuable resource to all members of this hobby.

I agree with mellie in that you don't have to take stock in it if you don't want to, but to say people only put names there because they have nothing better to do is an ignorant statement. I would say at least 90% of the members of DoD are active members of DoA and are now members of this forum as well. We all share this hobby and we all look out for our own, which is precisely what this thread is about. If you feel you have been wrongly accused of something you did not do then please, by all means, defend yourself appropriately. People will listen to the truth no matter what board they are on.

[rottenlullaby]

The only way we as a community are ever going to protect ourselves for scammers and people like Vanillashine, flightofswords & Kakyuu is if we START LEAVING BAD FEEDBACK!These were people that we knew in the hobby that had many good transactions and then either ran off with money or started making bad deals. Either way, many of us lost money to these people because no one came froward with bad feedback until it was too late. If lists like "DOD's bad sellers" list helps arm people with more knowledge when they go into transactions with other hobby members then we need it. I know I don't want to lose more money to people like flightofswords and neither does anyone else. Feedback ALL FEEDBACK is what we as a community need to protect ourselves form losing our money in a hobby we all love dearly.

/rant

[mellie]

I'll repeat it, since it seems to be unclear.

Everyone who is on that list is on that list for a reason. Whether it's that the person ships with different methods than what's paid for, overcharges on shipping, or lies about things, etc etc. Every person on that list has a reason to be.

People on the list can play the victim all they like. It does not change the fact that they did SOMETHING to be on that list. And in the case of certain people. If you read the thread, there are actually a few instances where some members argue that perhaps the person shouldn't be on the list. Most recently, someone warned the community about a potential scalper, but others came in and said that person wasn't marking the doll up that much to really be seen as a scalper.

So no, it's not all about fingerpointing and making up lies to hurt other people. Some of the transaction problems are mild, some of them are not. It's pretty obvious that a lot of it is true if some of those major problem people have also been banned on DoA. It's not some grand conspiracy to hurt people. It's truth to protect others.

[Karhys]

If you have an issue with being listed on a bad traders list at another forum, please take it up with them personally there.

We'll be adding known scammer and bad trader lists here and we hope that everyone who has a bad deal will come forward and say so. We want our community to protect each other and ourselves! If you get harassed for posting bad feedback, always please bring it up with the moderators, as we won't tolerate harassment on the forum.

I think we've hashed out the listing of bad traders pretty thoroughly at this point, though. Does anyone else have any other suggestions or ideas for making the Market a safer place?

[Wickedgood]

I don't know if there's any way to cut down on this, but if someone is spamming comments just to get into the marketplace it really makes me question their motives. When contemplating doing a transaction with someone, I always check their past posts to see what kind of history they actually have... I haven't actually noticed that anyone 'new' with a lot of posts was selling stuff in a marketplace yet, but I guess I'm paranoid - it doesn't hurt to check.

Also, a lot of times people will post pics of their dolls/items and give some indication of how they treat their stuff in posts BEFORE they decide to sell them off (for whatever reason). For instance, if they have their dolls posing in the dirt or in a tub of water, their FS post stating 'like new, only taken out of box once' is untrue - and makes me distrust other statements re: condition of the doll.

Of course, sometimes the condition/prior treatment of the doll/items doesn't come out in their posts until AFTER they sell it (I bought a doll recently and found out later from a post the seller made that the doll had been subjected to someone's sweaty stinky armpits *_*) but doing a quick fact-check might cut down on some of this at least.

As for not getting scammed outright, I think an active feedback forum is invaluable.

[Lizzard]

We'll be adding known scammer and bad trader lists here and we hope that everyone who has a bad deal will come forward and say so.

Thanks for this.

To those complaining about the DoD "bad sellers" list -- your position would be far more stable if you weren't actually on the list in question, you know.

Regarding other ideas to make the Marketplace more secure -- short of double-checking identities with scans of IDs, I'm not sure what else can be done. I hope everything will turn out well!

Edit: Actually, I thought of one thing, though I don't know if it's something the forum would want to take to the level of a "requirement." Perhaps it could be strongly suggested that individuals provide at least one photo of the item in question alongside a piece of notepaper with their name and date on it? I've noticed a number of people doing that on their own, and it makes me feel a lot better because it proves the item is in hand, at least.

[Tez]

Edit: Actually, I thought of one thing, though I don't know if it's something the forum would want to take to the level of a "requirement." Perhaps it could be strongly suggested that individuals provide at least one photo of the item in question alongside a piece of notepaper with their name and date on it? I've noticed a number of people doing that on their own, and it makes me feel a lot better because it proves the item is in hand, at least.
This I very, very much like. It always makes me nervous when there's only company stock photos (or none at all) of a listed item. It also has the advantage of making it much more likely that the item for sale is pictured in its current condition. That way it's less likely that someone could use a really pretty old touched-up photo for their sales thread, only for the buyer to find out the actual item is no longer in that sort of condition.

[mellie]

I think suggesting people look at the seller's post history is an awesome idea. Obviously you can't force someone to do it, but post history would give you a lot of information about the seller. Did they spam to get the post count up? Did they lie about the condition of their doll? That sort of thing.

[zalem]

Yeah, I've always hated the use of stock photos. I never buy from people who use only stock photos. It's nice to see proof that they actually have the item in hand.

[mahoubunnybell]

Edit: Actually, I thought of one thing, though I don't know if it's something the forum would want to take to the level of a "requirement." Perhaps it could be strongly suggested that individuals provide at least one photo of the item in question alongside a piece of notepaper with their name and date on it? I've noticed a number of people doing that on their own, and it makes me feel a lot better because it proves the item is in hand, at least.
Yeah, I have to agree with this.

[Bandwidth Broad]

<snip>
Edit: Actually, I thought of one thing, though I don't know if it's something the forum would want to take to the level of a "requirement." Perhaps it could be strongly suggested that individuals provide at least one photo of the item in question alongside a piece of notepaper with their name and date on it? I've noticed a number of people doing that on their own, and it makes me feel a lot better because it proves the item is in hand, at least.

Lizzard:

I see this on Y!Japan all of the time. I like the idea. It's easy to do and offers some sense to potential buyers that what they are seeing is what they are going to get. (Mind you, that doesn't always follow, but we live ever optimistic, eh?)

I have been lucky. I haven't done too much trading on DOA, but what I have purchased has been represented fairly and sent swiftly.

[nikita]

Edit: Actually, I thought of one thing, though I don't know if it's something the forum would want to take to the level of a "requirement." Perhaps it could be strongly suggested that individuals provide at least one photo of the item in question alongside a piece of notepaper with their name and date on it? I've noticed a number of people doing that on their own, and it makes me feel a lot better because it proves the item is in hand, at least.

We had already addressed this in the "How to write a good Marketplace post" sticky in all the MP subforums:

http://www.abjds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67

One added measure of security that buyers can ask from a seller (if it is not already provided) is to have a picture posted with the seller's name written on a piece of paper and placed on or next to the item(s) they are selling. This will be proof that the seller has the items they are selling on hand. This will also prevent any scamming commited by people that use pictures of items that they do not own.

[nikita]

Please check out the announcement and feedback thread on the new classified ad system we have created.

http://abjds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=738

This has its own built-in feedback system and feedback links back to the ad it was left for.

[catcooter]

This is a really difficult one for me. I don't tend to post very much. I'm one of those every present lurkers. I posted my ebay feedback thread. I've been around for years but most people don't know me. I would never, ever do someone wrong, but in order for me to use the marketplace I will have to go out of my way to post. I hate the idea that I have to make useless comments for the priviledge and one has to wonder how many scammers will do the same thing. It makes me sad there are so many dishonest people out there. Definately posting feedback is the the best thing to do and warning each other of deals gone sour is helpful. I like the idea of having number of posts and join dates available. For me it's more an interesting fact tho.

[Pooki]

I think that if people can feel free to contact those who are selling or buying to ask for 3 references, that they can contact, that would help a lot. I was thinking of how when I buy from, or sell to, someone that I don't know and for whatever reason I feel uncomfortable, the first thing that I do is post privately to my friends and ask around to see if anyone knows anything about the person buying or selling.

Maybe if people who wanted to do this, could put at the bottom of their post, contact me privately for recommendations that would help...

Online feedback is only helpful to me if I know the people who have left the feedback. It's too easy to have your friends gin up your feedback if you were dishonest. Online posting of transactions are always interesting to read, but there are always two sides to a story and it's not always easy to figure out who's telling the truth or if there was just an honest miscommunication.

Feedbacks are always tricky anyway because people could have had trouble in the past but now they are doing business/transactions in a good manner. I know I've been guilty of pre-selling and very late delivery, as well as stating I would ship when I ended up not being able to. I could understand someone being leery of dealing with me in the future, but I've since made changes to address those issues. So sometimes it's a good thing to make leeway for those who are new at doing business w/ dolls and/or online. We all learn by making mistakes.

[Kokoryta]

Feedbacks are always tricky anyway because people could have had trouble in the past but now they are doing business/transactions in a good manner. I know I've been guilty of pre-selling and very late delivery, as well as stating I would ship when I ended up not being able to. I could understand someone being leery of dealing with me in the future, but I've since made changes to address those issues. So sometimes it's a good thing to make leeway for those who are new at doing business w/ dolls and/or online. We all learn by making mistakes.

What would stop that person from not making mistakes in the future?

I think it comes down to the fact that if you make a "mistake", like shipping late, you own up to the fact that day and ship the next day. Yes some people make mistakes, but many other people make no mistakes.

As for making the marketplace safer- perhaps the mods can require that sellers enter something like their phone number, address, email into a hidden feild so that if we are presented with a scammer, people have a way to contact them outside the internet/forum?

[Genie Stallings]

This is a really difficult one for me. I don't tend to post very much. I'm one of those every present lurkers. I posted my ebay feedback thread. I've been around for years but most people don't know me. I would never, ever do someone wrong, but in order for me to use the marketplace I will have to go out of my way to post. I hate the idea that I have to make useless comments for the priviledge and one has to wonder how many scammers will do the same thing. It makes me sad there are so many dishonest people out there. Definately posting feedback is the the best thing to do and warning each other of deals gone sour is helpful. I like the idea of having number of posts and join dates available. For me it's more an interesting fact tho.

I must confess, linking marketplace priviledges to "chattiness" seems counterproductive. I've been a part of the community since the begining of August 2002 (SD Dreams!) but have never been particularly noticeable since I can't make myself post unless I really have something usefull to say (plus I have miserable photography skills). But lots of people have clothes and shoes that I've made and sold on eBay and DOA. And I have bought several dolls from DOA members. But it ain't likely that I'll ever make it into the marketplace here, particularly if the post count requirement goes up!

In a forum situation, buyer credibility isn't nearly as important as seller credibility; having a buyer flake-out means lost time rather than loss of money or goods and so many of the bad seller horror stories I've read involved sellers who could not be located. I'd like to suggest that would-be sellers have to request approval of the Mods and that full contact information would need to be provided to the Mods and verified before sales-ads could be posted. I see no need to put restrictions on a buyer's ability to enter the marketplace.

Back to lurking,
Genie

[nikita]

What would stop that person from not making mistakes in the future?

I think it comes down to the fact that if you make a "mistake", like shipping late, you own up to the fact that day and ship the next day. Yes some people make mistakes, but many other people make no mistakes.

As for making the marketplace safer- perhaps the mods can require that sellers enter something like their phone number, address, email into a hidden feild so that if we are presented with a scammer, people have a way to contact them outside the internet/forum?

I must confess, linking marketplace priviledges to "chattiness" seems counterproductive. I've been a part of the community since the begining of August 2002 (SD Dreams!) but have never been particularly noticeable since I can't make myself post unless I really have something usefull to say (plus I have miserable photography skills). But lots of people have clothes and shoes that I've made and sold on eBay and DOA. And I have bought several dolls from DOA members. But it ain't likely that I'll ever make it into the marketplace here, particularly if the post count requirement goes up!

In a forum situation, buyer credibility isn't nearly as important as seller credibility; having a buyer flake-out means lost time rather than loss of money or goods and so many of the bad seller horror stories I've read involved sellers who could not be located. I'd like to suggest that would-be sellers have to request approval of the Mods and that full contact information would need to be provided to the Mods and verified before sales-ads could be posted. I see no need to put restrictions on a buyer's ability to enter the marketplace.

Back to lurking,
Genie

We can't require sellers to give us their personal infomation. I don't think members would feel comfortable giving us their personal information either, just to sell on our site. On top of that, exactly how would we even verify their information? It wouldn't be feasible for us to be calling every member that wants to sell to verify their info. Are we to pay for phone calls to Europe/Asia? Also, there are probably a lot of legal ramifications on top of that -- I'm not even sure we can legally DO that.

[Pooki]

What would stop that person from not making mistakes in the future?

I think it comes down to the fact that if you make a "mistake", like shipping late, you own up to the fact that day and ship the next day. Yes some people make mistakes, but many other people make no mistakes.

As for making the marketplace safer- perhaps the mods can require that sellers enter something like their phone number, address, email into a hidden feild so that if we are presented with a scammer, people have a way to contact them outside the internet/forum?

Well, obviously, nothing could prevent people from making "mistakes" (in quotes, as you posted) other than the people themselves. It would be up to each buyer to decide for themselves whether or not they want to deal with someone. I've personally purchased from someone who had a stellar reputation for not making any "mistakes" before in the past, but something must have happened in their life because all of a sudden they stopped shipping and communicating with people. An item that was meant to take a week to be shipped ended up taking months. There's nothing to prevent that from happening either. It seems that online, all we have is a reputation or word of mouth in terms of "security" if we're not dealing with a "name brand" site. It would be up to each person to decide their level of security with a seller or buyer.

And it's not always as simple as "owning up and shipping the next day". Each situation is different. If you have the item already, and don't ship, that's different, but if you don't have the item or the item is not ready then you obviously can't ship. DOA has since changed rules regarding pre-selling, so that shouldn't happen, but that was partly what I was referring to. Usually if someone has a perfect reputation and then things go bad all of a sudden, there's a reason for it and, yes, sometimes that reason can be fixed so that it doesn't happen again. Just because someone had a problem before doesn't mean it's necessarily a recurring problem. Again, it would then be up to buyers to take into consideration lots of different factors and decide whether or not they want to deal w/ that person again. I've known lots of people on this site for a long time. I know of personally a handful of people who have had problems in the past with either shipping or paying. They are people who are still here and who still deal with people with no problems whatsoever, but for whatever reason they did have a problem in one or two instances in the past. Would I deal w/ these people?---for me, definitely yes. But for you, if you are not comfortable, then don't.

Also, I think you should always get the real name, address, and phone number of anyone that you are dealing with. I always try to put that information at the bottom of my emails when I'm dealing with a new customer. If I didn't, or the person doesn't have the initial email w/ that information, I readily give it to them if they ask. Ebay requires that information from sellers & buyers, which I think is a good thing so that you have some means to reach the person in case things don't work out.

[Comrade Kiskalla]

This is a really difficult one for me. I don't tend to post very much. I'm one of those every present lurkers. I posted my ebay feedback thread. I've been around for years but most people don't know me. I would never, ever do someone wrong, but in order for me to use the marketplace I will have to go out of my way to post. I hate the idea that I have to make useless comments for the priviledge and one has to wonder how many scammers will do the same thing. It makes me sad there are so many dishonest people out there. Definately posting feedback is the the best thing to do and warning each other of deals gone sour is helpful. I like the idea of having number of posts and join dates available. For me it's more an interesting fact tho.

Agreed.

I'm tied down to so many other forums, and the like, that it's a bit tough for me to dedicate the time to make genuine posts to up my count enough to venture into the marketplace. Maybe as the community here grows...but at this point, it's rather hard (at least, for me) to find myself in a rousing discussion that has me responding every few minutes.

[KyotoPunk]

sorry if this has been said already....

I usually feel somewhat safe if the person has alot of positive selling feedback and they can offer up pics of the doll, along with a sale pic (picture of the doll in it's packaging with their user name on a piece of paper).
There is so much more to this security wise that I know people have taken advantage of and it's sad :( Thanks for thinking of our safety as a forum.

[Bel]

Genie - I understand your points, and your quandary.

Personally, even feedback isn't enough for me in a forum situation. Too many people are afraid to post negative feedback. If I'm spending money with someone, I tend to nose around their posting history. If they strike me as psycho, hysterical, dishonest, or flaky, chances are I won't risk buying from them even if they have pristine feedback.

But I also understand that a lot of people (myself included) don't really like to post in forums (I'm going way out of my comfort zone posting here at Resinality, but that's another story.)

But, you could link to your offsite shop/ebay auctions in your sig, and encourage buyers to link to it when they post photos featuring your items, too. Even if you NEVER got marketplace access here, or even visited the forum at all, if I saw a few posts from happy customers that mentioned your work, I'd go see what you had available myself.

[Karhys]

I apologise for being so slow with this (I've had a fair bit on my plate recently!) but I just wanted to let you all know that I've posted our 'known scammer' list in the feedback area:

http://www.abjds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324

In addition I'll be compiling a list of links to all the main known online resources for the posting of bad feedback (such as the lists on DoA and DoDe and the general feedback areas on those forums) and a sort of shorthand "how to trade safely" list. (I just have a presentation to do at Uni on Tuesday that I really need to get completed first. :oops)

If you have any extra info or thoughts or whatever to add to the Known Scammers list, please do let me know. :)

[omichao]

I know I spammed around fifteen posts or so in the first hour of joining just in the "just joined, whee!" excitement, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to do so. Makes marketplace access very easy - which is good, but at the same time not the most secure thing, either. Of course there's also the point that people who've just joined may already be known on DoA as being extremely reputable sellers, so I suppose this isn't the best solution either.

Honestly, it's a little annoying having to wait around to get marketplace acces when I have 99% possitive feedback on DoA and over 2,500 posts.. But I still think it would be great to up the post count requirement for safety.

Maybe would it be possible for a mod here to override the post count requirement if you've got a certain post count on DoA and very good feedback on DoA or Ebay? Because then, even if you're new, you'd have the access as long as you've got a good reputation as a seller/buyer at another very well known place. That would help for those lurkers (Yes, I see you o_<!) that don't like to post, but have proven themselves elsewhere to be trustworthy.

For people that have little to no feedback or posts on DoA or here and still want quick access, I'd just say "Sorry!" The marketplace is a luxury, not a privilege. If you want to use it, work hard just like everyone else. Until then, there's a number of auction sites and other communities that they can deal in.

[Bandwidth Broad]

Although, yes, this is a BJD community, I would suspect that there are probably quite a few people who rarely purchase and/or sell things in the marketplace but have many years of extremely successful experience both buying and selling on Ebay. Granted, Ebay is a company. Granted, Ebay probably has all kinds of licenses (and observes all manner of legal restriction and/or freedoms) that I wouldn't begin to hazard a guess about, but it is a marketplace where all manner of commodity, some extremely expensive, are traded. If you want feedback about what kind of a buyer or seller somebody is, it is a bit ... perhaps naive? ... to ignore Ebay feedback in favor of limited feedback in an exclusive venue.

Before anybody can sell on Ebay, they must provide quite a lot of information. As has been mentioned above, there may be legalities involved here of which I am not aware. And I am certainly not suggesting that the moderators should EVER be put in a position where they have to telephone anybody to corroborate identity/legitimacy. However, I have a suggestion. All individuals trading on the marketplace (both sellers and buyers) should have to register. When they register, they should be asked to pay a nominal sum, say $5.00. A small amount of the sum can go for postage -- both to pay for a letter plus return, self-addressed postcard for verification of address details AND to help pay to maintain the forum.

When traders register, they must be willing to provide a permanent address, a land-line and/or cell phone telephone number, and an email address. If a dispute should arise in the marketplace, the moderators can provide each party with the other's contact information -- something that should be the absolute MINIMUM of information swapped prior to any purchase consideration in any event. Would a system like this provide an extra layer of security?

[Tez]

Maybe would it be possible for a mod here to override the post count requirement if you've got a certain post count on DoA and very good feedback on DoA or Ebay? Because then, even if you're new, you'd have the access as long as you've got a good reputation as a seller/buyer at another very well known place. That would help for those lurkers (Yes, I see you o_<!) that don't like to post, but have proven themselves elsewhere to be trustworthy.
I don't see this as even remotely fair. If you're going to have a set of rules dictating who can and can't access a marketplace, then those rules need to be enforced across the board, no questions asked, no exceptions. If people start getting a free pass because of history on another board, then what's the point of having rules and requirements at all?

[mellie]

I don't see this as even remotely fair. If you're going to have a set of rules dictating who can and can't access a marketplace, then those rules need to be enforced across the board, no questions asked, no exceptions. If people start getting a free pass because of history on another board, then what's the point of having rules and requirements at all?

I agree. It's not fair to think you're exempt from the rule because you have a certain number of posts on DoA. That's just bull.

Maybe anyone who can't be bothered to wait like everyone else and asks a mod to override the requirements should just be banned from the marketplace altogether. :)

[harlowe]

I agree. It's not fair to think you're exempt from the rule because you have a certain number of posts on DoA. That's just bull.


I agree. It's pretty lose right now isn't it? Be a member for 7 days and have 25posts? I can't imagine someone thinking that is unreasonable.

Besides, members should have to all follow the same rules.

[Lizzard]

I would have no interest in dealing with someone unwilling to invest 7 days and 25 posts in a forum before using it to hawk and purchase goods. We're not Wal-Mart, we're a community. If you want to buy and sell in the community, join it by posting.

As an aside, post counts on DoA mean nothing. How many posts did Kaz have before she was banned?

[mellie]

If someone can't be bothered to wait a week and post 25 times, I can't be bothered to ever spend any of my hard earned money on anything they might sell.

[Tez]

As an aside, post counts on DoA mean nothing. How many posts did Kaz have before she was banned?
Not to mention that DoA feedback threads have to be taken with a big fat grain of salt. It's been mentioned over and over and OVER that people just do not post negative feedback on DoA, for whatever reason. I went and looked at a banned seller's feedback once, just out of curiosity -- guess what, it was perfectly shiny and lovely and did not say a damn thing wrong. Doesn't exactly give me a lot of faith in an off-forum feedback thread.

[omichao]

Maybe anyone who can't be bothered to wait like everyone else and asks a mod to override the requirements should just be banned from the marketplace altogether. :)

And maybe people who can't keep from making snide remarks should be banned from the forum all together :)

You're free to criticize the suggestions put up here by anyone, including myself, but you should really think about leaving the blatant rudeness aside.

[mellie]

I think it was a pretty good suggestion myself, but you don't have to get all hurt and call me rude just because I think your suggestion was ridiculous and unfair. :)

And honestly, I do think people who pm mods for special privledges should be banned from the marketplace because it IS unfair. It is also really sketchy that someone is too impatient to wait a week and post 25 times.

[Tez]

And honestly, I do think people who pm mods for special privledges should be banned from the marketplace because it IS unfair. It is also really sketchy that someone is too impatient to wait a week and post 25 times.
Ban or no ban, I know I personally look askance at any seller or buyer who seeks to circumvent rules put into place solely to make a marketplace a more secure location to transact business.

[mellie]

Ban or no ban, I know I personally look askance at any seller or buyer who seeks to circumvent rules put into place solely to make a marketplace a more secure location to transact business.

Exactly. It's not like the limits here are strict, and it really makes me wonder if that particular person has something to hide by trying get into the marketplace so quickly.

[MosaicWolf]

And maybe people who can't keep from making snide remarks should be banned from the forum all together :)


Well, since you'd be first in line, that would work for me. ;)

[zalem]

Getting back on topic, I would disagree with the idea of people circumventing the rules because they have a good reputation elsewhere. For one thing, why bother the mods here with something like that? They want less moderation and the whole 25 post/7 day thing is automated so they don't have to do a thing.

And like others have mentioned, I just don't see the current requirements being all that difficult to achieve. Even for a lurker.

[Sola]

I don't really see why anyone's history on DoA should have anything to do with what happens here, because - this ain't it. Some scammers have been banned because of their repeated, verifiable behavior. DoA feedback is listed as a matter of courtesy. But, just because you've kicked up a little pile elsewhere does not mean you get a free slice of cake and a gold pass. Even suggesting it is kind of rude to the mods, as well, and says to me that you don't think a hell of a lot about other people's integrity if it's inconvinent for you.


All right, the more i think about this, the more it makes me :mad , so i'm going to bow out for now.

[coop52]

I think that the current requirements aren't all that bad. 25 posts isn't that much. I'm pretty much a lurker, and I'm about halfway there just by making the occasional post. Honestly, the requirements are really lenient. I know in the My Little Pony community, there are plenty of people who won't buy from anyone that has extensive eBay feedback as well as community feedback. And, there's eBay sellers who reserve the right to cancel bids for people with fewer than 10 or so ratings. The way it's done here is far more accessible.

I agree that people should not get a free pass because of posts and time on other forums. People should prove themselves as reliable here. Besides, there have been several people who were longtime members with high post counts who have made huge mistakes before or suddenly became scammers.

[Amanohara]

I'm really surprised the requirements are so easily achieved, 1 week and 25 posts is nothing. I would prefer the requirements be doubled even.. at least post count. that's just me..

I'm considering this forum a new place with new people, of course I can show my DoA feedback and ebay feedback, but investing sometime into the forum and getting to know its people and its people getting to know me is the best way to go.. especially for a seller.

[Bluehairfreak]

How is reducing the requirements to gain access to the marketplace going to increase security? Looking at your history on another site may be encouraging to people but at the same time if you're going to do business on this board you need to build reputation here, not just rely on what you have elsewhere.

[Kokoryta]

Looking at your history on another site may be encouraging to people but at the same time if you're going to do business on this board you need to build reputation here, not just rely on what you have elsewhere.

Frankly, as others have said, even looking at post history on DOA would be futile because DOA has a policy of forcing nice-ness onto people. So anything that is said on DOA has to be taken with a grain of salt because some people might be lying through their teeth. :daisy

[Bluehairfreak]

True, I was also thinking about ebay feedback, but people sometimes pull their punches there too, to avoid retalitory feedback

[Bandwidth Broad]

The only sure way to avoid any possibility of fraud is to avoid trading. That's just about the sum of it.

An observation here. I've been trading on Ebay since 1999. I have 916 positive feedbacks from individual sellers and buyers as of today, but over 1000 in actuality. I can say that in those eight years I have only had five problematic transactions (sellers who did not come through when they said they would), and Paypal refunded every one of them. I have had two problems with buyers (the first involved a bounced check, the second was bigger -- a doll disappeared into Italian customs and never emerged. I was out significant money for that one, plus the doll, and after hearing from other sellers who experienced similar problems when sending items to Italy, I made an educated decision to avoid trading with anybody from Italy). I have purchased items from low feedback sellers, and sold items to low feedback buyers.

The best suggestion I can provide is this -- communicate with the buyer/seller. If you are left feeling uneasy about a transaction, don't go through with it.

[Taco]

I think that it's safer not to rely on only one method of judging a buyer/seller. Feedback can be very usefull, but as others have pointed out, it's also not always accurate. Combining feedback, postcounts, and the types of posts made can give a better picture of the seller/buyer.

I don't think feedback and postcounts made on other forums should count towards the requirements here. For one thing, requiring people to actually make an attempt at participating in the community helps encourage more of a community feel rather than having people just join to have another marketplace to use. For another, not all communities are the same. Message boards all have different cultures and community expectations. Resinality has a different feel than DoA, and how someone posts on DoA isn't necessarily reflective of how they would get along on another forum.

The requirements really aren't hard to meet. There's enough different types of discussion and groups to get involved with, that it shouldn't be that hard to find topics that a user is comfortable posting in.

[april]

Thanks for the Known Scammers List.

I'd actually done business with bjdorama/freespritz once, and they took a LONG, long time, but I eventually got my items... but I didn't know of problems with anyone else. I just was nervous ever since and haven't bought from them again. I'm usually very good about sensing good or bad transactions, but it's SO hard to tell.

I just saw an article in the newspaper recently about ebay sellers selling fakes--in this case, a set of audio headphones. They had great feedback since no one knew the items were fakes--they had great packaging, etc. Only a few people got wise and started talking on forums... and others had their items confirmed as fakes by the company that supposedly made them. Otherwise, tons of buyers happily left PosFB. And the seller claimed it was a batch of things that he thought were legit... *sigh*

I now suspect all the little electronics I've bought!!!

It's SO hard to tell. I guess I have to rely on just a sense of whether the deal is fair or not (not too good to be true!), and FB, and seller's history (but it may be good and long and they could still sell a bad item--my mistake or not... or suddenly go bad, as some of the people on the scammer list have...). I guess one just has to be very, very cautious when it comes to buying big ticket items like dolls from private individuals... I'm not sure one can ever be that safe. But doing the research is key. Checking to see if there's internet chatter about various sellers who may be scammers, etc. I don't do this on the small items, and really run the risk of trouble--but at least I'm not going to be out major money...

It's a hard world out there, sometimes!

Anyway--I'm glad you're doing what you can to make it safer here!

[Ladyrixx]

Frankly, as others have said, even looking at post history on DOA would be futile because DOA has a policy of forcing nice-ness onto people. So anything that is said on DOA has to be taken with a grain of salt because some people might be lying through their teeth. :daisy

And let's not forget if a person flakes out on you before money changes hands any feedback would be deleted for that transaction, because in DoA-land that's not a "transaction".